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San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

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Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#31
post #9

I truly believe limiting educational attainment for our smartest (or privileged, if you want) children is among the most obviously harmful things we can do as a society. It’s shocking to me that anyone can vote to make moves like that with a straight face. Of course we want everyone to get better education. But under-leveraging our highest potential children is a crime that takes future well-being from everyone.

It only affect the poor. The competitive parents regardless left or right will do whatever they can to get their children ahead. When it comes down to children, all bets are off. After so many years, I can't say that these kinds of policies aren't malicious.

How can you say that eliminating algebra for all students ‘only’ affects the poor it literally is the opposite it is all Students no subset.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what will these folks who can do algebra but not arithmetic do with their skill? Are there any applications that don’t involve other math knowledge? Someone who can’t subtract is functionally retarded in modern society and it’s not meaningful to invest outside remedial education

You're asking, what skill could someone possibly develop on a foundation of symbolic reasoning... on a software development forum ? Not to mention that becoming proficient in algebra helps these kids realize they're not "bad at math" and hopeless (as you seem to think they are). It's easier to fill in knowledge gaps when you're looking backwards than forwards (speaking from my own experience with subjects I've strugg…

I really doubt folks who can’t subtract will get an engineering job, it’s almost certainly the tip of the iceberg of intellectual insufficiency. Doesn’t mean they’re bad people or even dumb.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only affect the poor. The competitive parents regardless left or right will do whatever they can to get their children ahead. When it comes down to children, all bets are off. After so many years, I can't say that these kinds of policies aren't malicious.

How can you say that eliminating algebra for all students ‘only’ affects the poor it literally is the opposite it is all Students no subset.

Wealthy people can get private tutors or send their kids to a private school. The poor are stuck with the public schools.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only affect the poor. The competitive parents regardless left or right will do whatever they can to get their children ahead. When it comes down to children, all bets are off. After so many years, I can't say that these kinds of policies aren't malicious.

How can you say that eliminating algebra for all students ‘only’ affects the poor it literally is the opposite it is all Students no subset.

You think the resourceful parents are just gonna sit on their hands and thinking: oops the school is not gonna teach the subjects, we are just gonna to collectively forget out them.

No. They will do whatever they can to make sure their children get the education. They will pay extra. Some will teach their children themselves.

Again, this is regardless of race/religion/lgbtq or anything. It's all hands on deck when it comes to providing for the children.

Sometimes I really doubt whether people are really that naive online? Or are they arguing for the sake of the argument? Tbh, I have never seen anyone in real life doesn't understand the situation and the parents that I am talking about.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#35
post #33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say that eliminating algebra for all students ‘only’ affects the poor it literally is the opposite it is all Students no subset.

Wealthy people can get private tutors or send their kids to a private school. The poor are stuck with the public schools.

> The poor are stuck with the 'bad' public schools.

Minor suggestion, there are good ones

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy people can get private tutors or send their kids to a private school. The poor are stuck with the public schools.

> The poor are stuck with the 'bad' public schools. Minor suggestion, there are good ones

I don't think mentioning the quality of the public schools is relevant. Poor people are almost always stuck in public schools (on occasion they can get aid for private schools). This rule on banning certain math classes applies to all public schools regardless of how good or bad they are. This means even if a poor kid went to the best public school in the world, they would still be impacted.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#37
post #33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say that eliminating algebra for all students ‘only’ affects the poor it literally is the opposite it is all Students no subset.

Wealthy people can get private tutors or send their kids to a private school. The poor are stuck with the public schools.

[dead]

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The poor are stuck with the 'bad' public schools. Minor suggestion, there are good ones

I don't think mentioning the quality of the public schools is relevant. Poor people are almost always stuck in public schools (on occasion they can get aid for private schools). This rule on banning certain math classes applies to all public schools regardless of how good or bad they are. This means even if a poor kid went to the best public school in the world, they would still be impacted.

I have met teachers who would go out of their ways in helping the students to learn. My teachers from many years ago were like this. That's the perk of the good ones. But other than that, I agree with you

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, how can algebra not depend on arithmetic? Something simple like x+20=3x+8. The normal way to solve this is just separate terms, but you need to subtract 8 from 20. Is there another way to do this?

Frustrating that op doesn't straight answer the question. I think what he's getting at is that you can do the usual steps without having to interpret what the mean . For example, you don't have to say that you're subtracting 8 from 20. Instead you say that all things without x must be on the same side, and signs change when you move across. So one step is x+20-8=3x. Nevermind what those symbols mean, you just memoriz…

> To me this seems that you're hacking the system. You're avoiding learning how to think and understand, you're just learning how to pass the class.

I can certainly grasp that these are literally different, but are they practically different for most people?

Eg I know that some of my clothes need to be washed with cold water. I don't know why, but it's never made a difference in my life.

I know my car needs oil changes, but I don't specifically know why. Some kind of lubrication, but for what and why it goes bad I have no idea.

We all do hundreds of things algorithmically without really understanding what we're doing or why. We know enough to get the answer we want and that's good enough.

The kids that do algebra algorithmically probably aren't going to be math professors, but neither am I, and there are plenty of lucrative and productive professions that are fine with getting the right answer without knowing why.

On some level, most people are doing arithmetic algorithmically anyways, based on rules structured around base 10. Ask some people you think have passable arithmetic skills to do addition and subtraction in like base 5 and watch the smoke come out of their ears. I'm not casting aspersions, I'd have a hard time too past a couple digits.

I would wager most of them can't explain why we carry numbers over, they just know it needs to happen to get the right answer. I don't think I'm much better; I'm sure there are dozens of things in basic math that I just do without really understanding why.

> That said, I cannot concieve that some kids don't understand 20-8.

I would almost put money down that it's around carrying the 1's. I've met a few people that struggled with arithmetic, and they almost always get lost around carrying over numbers.

Re: San Francisco reverses 'equitable' ban on middle school algebra

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frustrating that op doesn't straight answer the question. I think what he's getting at is that you can do the usual steps without having to interpret what the mean . For example, you don't have to say that you're subtracting 8 from 20. Instead you say that all things without x must be on the same side, and signs change when you move across. So one step is x+20-8=3x. Nevermind what those symbols mean, you just memoriz…

> To me this seems that you're hacking the system. You're avoiding learning how to think and understand, you're just learning how to pass the class. I can certainly grasp that these are literally different, but are they practically different for most people? Eg I know that some of my clothes need to be washed with cold water. I don't know why, but it's never made a difference in my life. I know my car needs oil chang…

Regarding doing things algorithmically without understanding what's going on: sure, you have a point no doubt. But here's my counterpoint. What is the point of school? If you're teaching kids because you want them to be able to solve problems, why teach them algebra? How many times in their life does an average person have to find the solution to x+20=3x+8 to solve a real life problem? If you want to teach useful algorithms you should get rid of algebra and have schools teach taxes, personal hygiene, physical exercise, maintenance of house, car, etc and stuff like that.

But if the point of school isn't "teach them practical algorithms", but instead learning how to think, then it makes perfect sense to teach them equations, and have them actual understand.

I'm short, if the point of school is to learn how to think, teaching them some mysterious algorithms isn't going to achieve that. If the point is to learn useful algorithms, I can think of 100 better things than algebra.

So which one is it?

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