Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

scottporad.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 159 posts

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#111

Post by hetman »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #48

brilliant comment in the original post, just in case anybody missed it "When I had my bathroom remodelled, at first I thought it was organized amazingly well and why couldn’t software be like that? There was a designer from Expo, a primary contractor and subcontractors for tiling, painting, etc. a project workbook containing all the documents, including the design, and a logbook for every contractor to record their v…

This is exactly it. It's very easy to look at a field we only have a surface understanding of, and conclude it's all fairly straight forward after and expert in the field makes it look easy. I've found that in construction, as in software, there really is a very wide range of expertise too. Some of the tradesmen really know their art, and some are just slapping something together because by the time the customer realses it's probably too late.

Perhaps the biggest difference with software might be that physical reality places greater constraints on the solution space. With software it's easy to innovate the constraints of the pieces to a greater extent, which can easily have unforseen consequences. The difference is not so much that working around constraints is harder, but with every project they can be hugely different. A problem that I suppose design patterns attempt to ameliorate. If only design patterns could be foisted on designers the way physical reality is.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#112

Post by jakejake »

mbenjaminsmith wrote: post #50
bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

"It doesn't take very long to 'build' the software or the website (obvious 'large scale' projects like OSes excepted)." A lot of assumptions have to be met for that to be true. It shouldn't take very long provided: 1. The programmers are very familiar with the tools. 2. The programmers are very familiar with all necessary 3rd party components. 3. The 3rd party components account for 99% of functionality. 4. The progr…

I tend to agree that the actual code writing phase is easy if the spec is very thorough. But the spec can never specify everything and tons of little decisions are left up to the developer. There are always people on the team who will create little messes. Those messes start to pile up unless there is a very strong leader who refuses to let any inconsistent code through (and is given the time to do so)

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#113

Post by nsomaru »

fridek wrote: post #54
bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

I was working as a freelancer for a long time and I had a quite simple solution for lack of documentation. Before the first meeting I'd send a customer 12-page form to fill which covered most of the "what and why" of the project. It quickly turned out that most of people have no idea whatsoever about the product they wanted to buy. I know that it's partly our job to guide people through rough path, but if all custome…

Would you mind sharing that document?

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#114

Post by padobson »

fridek wrote: post #54
bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

I was working as a freelancer for a long time and I had a quite simple solution for lack of documentation. Before the first meeting I'd send a customer 12-page form to fill which covered most of the "what and why" of the project. It quickly turned out that most of people have no idea whatsoever about the product they wanted to buy. I know that it's partly our job to guide people through rough path, but if all custome…

I'd like to see it too.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#115

Post by joedev »

This article points out the issues I have with the "software craftsmanship" movement. By definition, crafting is building by hand. When we treat software development as a "craft", we attribute too much benefit to hand-building software and lend little effort to finding ways to be more productive and efficient at software development.

As long as software is considered a craft, it will always be an expensive, laborious, and frustrating process for clients and customers. That may be great for software developers' egos and pocketbooks, but does little to improve the image of software development projects among the general public.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#118

Post by igorlev »

hetman wrote: post #111
trustfundbaby wrote: post #48

brilliant comment in the original post, just in case anybody missed it "When I had my bathroom remodelled, at first I thought it was organized amazingly well and why couldn’t software be like that? There was a designer from Expo, a primary contractor and subcontractors for tiling, painting, etc. a project workbook containing all the documents, including the design, and a logbook for every contractor to record their v…

This is exactly it. It's very easy to look at a field we only have a surface understanding of, and conclude it's all fairly straight forward after and expert in the field makes it look easy. I've found that in construction, as in software, there really is a very wide range of expertise too. Some of the tradesmen really know their art, and some are just slapping something together because by the time the customer real…

I wish I could up vote the part about physical reality a few times more :) What's even worse is with something like usability, it's even more insidious since may never really find out something is "broken", or even think of it as being broken.

I've always thought of the various kinds of testing as adding some physics to constrain a purely abstract idea within some bounds.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#119

Post by OriginalSyn »

bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

In Alberta, Canada, software developers cannot be have "Engineer" in their title, for this very reason, unless they fit a very specific set of requirements [1]. The Canadian Council of Professional Engineers defends the title, via The EGP Act, in order to preserve the credibility of the profession.

[1] http://www.apega.ca/About/ACT/preface.htm

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#120

Post by alainbryden »

equalarrow wrote: post #102
dhimes wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have regulations here in the US also (I had my house rebuilt 10 years ago and recently turned an outdoor deck into an indoor office). But our regulations are primarily safety-related. The wiring must be safe, the pipes plumbed so that drains drain and vents vent, and so on. They don't really inspect the quality of the craftsmanship. If your wall is not load-bearing, they care very little at all about how it is bui…

You're absolutely right - safety is key importance, style/'correctness' are secondary. My dad is a contractor. He can literally build anything. I grew up with this, going on jobs with him, being in that whole space. I do software (but can build things too! :) and the one thing I've inherited from him is the 'do it right' conviction. Just like some of the tv shows where the hero goes in and says "omg, how could they d…

But in software, the people smart enough to say "this is all gonna have to be ripped out and re-done the right way", are rarely in a position to not get their asses booted out the door.
Post reply on HN