The amusing thing is that on-homescreen PWAs were the only way iOS supported web push notifications. They could 100% do it in the browser, like every other browser does. But they won't, because they're openly hostile to open web technologies.
Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
471–480 of 829 posts
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#472As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.
As an American dev I can't wait to see tech companies leave the EU and leave it in shambles as the EU realizes it never learnt how to innovate, only legislate and rent-seek from our companies. Frankly, the region needs us far more than we need it.
As an EU dev, yes please.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#473I’m primed to be upset with Apple these days, but this doesn’t seem like an unreasonable position. The EU is forcing them to do a bunch of work to support alternate browser engines, this in turn creates a bunch of additional work if Apple wants to fully support PWAs, and PWAs aren’t really in Apple’s financial interest to begin with, so f-it. They're not going to spend resources to add support for PWAs in the EU. It'…
>PWAs aren’t really in Apple’s financial interest to begin with, so f-it
Translation: Apple hates developers who believe in open tech, despite being built on mountains of foundational open tech, like every other company.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why silently change the underlying browser engine of an existing PWA without the user's knowledge? That sounds like a bad UX. At least make the existing PWA stay with Safari and provide the ability to switch the underlying engine for each PWA afterwards if migrating is possible.
As I understand the legislation, Apple has three choices for how to comply with the law. They can either allow third party browsers the elevated system access that Safari currently has in order to be able to access the data for multiple PWAs ... which compromises Apple's security standards, but puts Safari and other browser engines on the same footing. Or, Apple can remove the additional security permissions that Saf…
> They can either allow third party browsers the elevated system access that Safari currently has
That’s a fable. Apple have a good history in security design. There is absolutely no way Safari have some "system access" that another app can’t have. Safari is probably just as sandboxed by the OS than every other app or else that would be an incredibly stupid decision.
If Apple wanted to implement PWAs correctly, they’d just run whatever engine + the web page in the same solid OS sandbox and there wouldn’t be any more security issue than with any App Store App.
Any iOS dev knows that it’s impossible for any app to gain any useful access without being granted the permission by the OS. The point is Apple is stuck being forced to hide that the security model of iOS is based on this (working well) sandboxing because it goes against their narrative that all the security comes from App Store policies (which they technically can’t enforce because all they’ve got to review is binary code).
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#475If for example the EU instituted rules in the steel industry that harmed US companies, US politicians would fight back and start a trade war.
Why is it not the case with apple? They undermine the entire concept of free market capitalism by forcing companies to do unprofitable things instead of letting consumers vote with their wallets by using alternative products of which there are many.
There is no anti-competitiveness or harm to consumers. No one is telling car makers to allow standardized engine parts. Ferrari can make every part of the car unique and incompatible with other car makers so long as it meets safety standards, so why is apple special?
My theory is the EU has benefited a lot from fining rich US tech companies, they get votes from european techies who don't get capitalism and extra revenue. And the US is docile because they need EU support against China.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it was 6 months old and she doesn't care about it or phones. She thought it was broken. I charged it with my powerbank, an anker PD one and she ordered a proper charger off amazon. I gave her my spare USB-C cable. It was seen as a potential financial inconvenience having to do anything about it as well. Literally many people do not care enough to understand it. It's just a modern necessity, a tool.
This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can dr…
The charging speed of USB-C cables (C on both ends) is pretty much just the slow ones and the fast ones, and "slow" is 60 watts.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#477If for example the EU instituted rules in the steel industry that harmed US companies, US politicians would fight back and start a trade war. Why is it not the case with apple? They undermine the entire concept of free market capitalism by forcing companies to do unprofitable things instead of letting consumers vote with their wallets by using alternative products of which there are many. There is no anti-competitive…
Well, probably because the digital markets act isn't an Apple Tax. It merely provides more freedom to users.
> They undermine the entire concept of free market capitalism by forcing companies to do unprofitable things instead of letting consumers vote with their wallets by using alternative products of which there are many
If this truly forces unprofitable behavior, we should expect Apple to pull out out Europe. But I would bet my life that doesn't happen.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#478Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is my wife. She purchased a bunch of USB-A to USB-c cables off Amazon and wonders why her laptop runs out of power while plugged in - it's because the laptop needs 25-30 watts and those cables can only put out 5 watts because they're limited by the USB-A port. USB-c PD is such a dumpster fire of a standard. Even with supposedly high end cables like Anker you often can't charge a Macbook Pro faster than it can dr…
The charging speed of USB-C cables (C on both ends) is pretty much just the slow ones and the fast ones, and "slow" is 60 watts.
No.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform, but Apple's platforms are the only ones where it is being positioned as a legitimate alternative; Android has "sideloading", Windows has REGULAR loading. It doesn't matter who joined Apple when and did what, PWAs on iPhone are not like native apps, it's not even really close. It's good that this pathetic line of argument wasn't much of a deterrence for…
> That's kind of the point, PWAs don't have parity on any platform That’s not true, nor what I posited. PWAs have almost all the native features, if not all, depending on the platform. Plenty of “pro-PWA” people go out of their way to demonstrate this[0]. I’m talking about install rates and usage by end users in a way similar to using a native app. Whether you agree on parity or not, you seem to concede that PWAs are…
I'm not going to go point by point on this one, but I do have some remarks. I am not "projecting", I own multiple Apple devices, therefore, I am very well within my right to talk about what I want as an owner of Apple hardware and on behalf of likeminded users, even if people on Hacker News don't like that fact as is evident from time to time. Wanting "sideloading" aka regular loading is not wildly off topic, it's literally MORE on topic than PWA vs native app parity, which is really not relevant to the EU DMA compliance issues at hand. And on that note, of course PWAs do not have parity with native applications. They're quite a lot slower, for starters. Is anyone shocked? No... it's not weird that it is much slower when you are going through Webkit instead of native APIs like Metal, in WebAssembly and JavaScript instead of C and Swift. That's disregarding the fact that both policy-wise and in what APIs are available, clearly PWAs have significantly more limited access to integrate with their host platforms, which again, is hardly surprising for glorified bookmarks.
Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this? Looking at these things as sides is a mistake. Instead of just being tribal, it's better to look positions on their merits.
> it's better to look positions on their merits How do you do this when any value a "merit" could have is based in this dichotomy of vendor/user?
It's not based on that, as far as I can see. Saying "browsers are extremely complex from a security perspective and we will only allow the one we made on to our platform" is in service of making a better product.
You might say that that's not true, and browsers are easy to secure, but that would be arguing the point on its merits. Not on the tribalist lens you're seeing this situation through.