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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#111

Post by gkbrk »

rimunroe wrote: post #75
veeti wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely and that 2) they can't be bothered to provide the same API's for third party browsers because it's not "practical". They built their PWA support in an anticompetitive manner assuming App Store & WebKit would be a monopoly forever, and now as a result the…

> Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? I know it's used as an intensifier, but this feels like a particularly bad place to use "literally" that way. > They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely Not really sure how to respond to this. An airliner already has all the controls required for being piloted. Why am I not allowed to pilot m…

> An airliner already has all the controls required for being piloted. Why am I not allowed to pilot my next commercial flight?

Flying a plane badly risks the lives of your passengers, the lives of people on other planes, and people in the nearby area.

Doing whatever you want with your phone doesn't risk other people's phones.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#112

Post by akaij »

rimunroe wrote: post #33
akaij wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think any other interpretation is extremely naive.

Could you explain why?

I don't think believing why the most valuable company in the world with the highest and thickest walls around its garden, and a track record of not playing nice with others, is doing this, requires much explanation except that they want to kill the possibility of anyone bypassing the toll gate to the said garden.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#113

Post by veeti »

rimunroe wrote: post #75
veeti wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely and that 2) they can't be bothered to provide the same API's for third party browsers because it's not "practical". They built their PWA support in an anticompetitive manner assuming App Store & WebKit would be a monopoly forever, and now as a result the…

> Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? I know it's used as an intensifier, but this feels like a particularly bad place to use "literally" that way. > They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely Not really sure how to respond to this. An airliner already has all the controls required for being piloted. Why am I not allowed to pilot m…

> Not really sure how to respond to this. An airliner already has all the controls required for being piloted. Why am I not allowed to pilot my next commercial flight?

What kind of ridiculous "argument" is this? Am I putting hundreds of other people in risk by installing Firefox on my iPhone? The fact remains that the EU in fact does intend to put you in front the airliner's controls. You can of course choose to turn on autopilot and keep using Safari.

> Why should they have wasted time building affordances for a world in which they were forced to support other browsers?

Guess what, "tight integration" of Internet Explorer into Windows for whatever technical reasons was not a favorable argument for Microsoft in front of the European Commission either. Lack of foresight to design open systems is not an excuse in front of the law.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#114

Post by Someone »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #55

Very questionable argumentation. This can be seen from two different angles: 1. PWA is a native wrapper for a web application, not a browser. It is supposed to be limited to the app website. DMA does not tell Apple that every app with embedded WebView should offer users possibility to switch the engine. Why PWA should be treated differently here? I‘d rather clarify this with regulators first, before harming end users…

> DMA does not tell Apple that every app with embedded WebView should offer users possibility to switch the engine.

I don’t see how that’s related to the issue being discussed.

> In the meantime current solution could stay simply because it does not hinder any competition.

Why do you think “you can install a third party browser, but if you do, you can’t add PWAs to the Home Screen” doesn’t hinder competition?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#115

Post by shuckles »

luuurker wrote: post #64
lannisterstark wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just not.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

The sides in this debate are: Apple, Chrome advocates (with a little bit of separation), and the EU. It's not that perplexing to choose the first.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#116

Post by nozzlegear »

candiodari wrote: post #43
crazygringo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting that. I'm no iOS expert but it actually sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation. It's at least good to hear Apple's side here, and more knowledgeable commenters here can weigh in as to whether it really does seem genuine.

Sure it's reasonable ... because of course all these browsers don't have a security model and just allow web apps to do whatever they want. This is essentially saying no-one can build a secure browser.

Nobody but Apple has experience building a secure browser. [1]

[1] On iOS.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#117

Post by chongli »

summerlight wrote: post #108
M4v3R wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to trust someone if you're using a computing device connected to the Internet. The point of being in Apple ecosystem is that you trust Apple, and then (supposedly) you can not trust anyone else. To many that's a very strong proposition.

> The point of being in Apple ecosystem is that you trust Apple, This seems to be over-generalization? Users are using Apple devices because those are good products, not because they want to delegate every single trust problem to the Apple ecosystem. That might be a great proposition for people like you, but there is a significant number of people who consider it a compromise rather than a value.

Users trust Apple because Apple is ultimately accountable for security breaches on iOS devices. If a 3rd party app causes a data breach it does not matter if the breach was made possible by compliance with regulations like the DMA, Apple will still take the blame.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#118

Post by shuckles »

bee_rider wrote: post #103
candiodari wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's reasonable ... because of course all these browsers don't have a security model and just allow web apps to do whatever they want. This is essentially saying no-one can build a secure browser.

Nobody can build a secure browser.

Truer words have not been spoken! Maybe only second to nobody can build a secure baseband.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#119

Post by veeti »

Elidrake42 wrote: post #77
veeti wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's literally what it says when you really read into it? They acknowledge that 1) Safari already has all the integrations required to support PWA securely and that 2) they can't be bothered to provide the same API's for third party browsers because it's not "practical". They built their PWA support in an anticompetitive manner assuming App Store & WebKit would be a monopoly forever, and now as a result the…

This is why I purchase iOS devices - ultimately their closed garden provides a smaller attack surface, clearly evidenced by the comparative (to Android) cost of exploits on the black market. I cannot see this as anticompetitive. If you want open, you have that choice in Android.

I'm sorry to say the EU regulators disagree with you on that.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#120

Post by Ajedi32 »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #61
cma wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the plain browser already can request camera permissions, in a bad security situation a site that didn't request it still receives it from the browser's system level request. This is just Apple wanting to avoid people being able to develop a platform on top of their platform without paying a tax.

That’s not the point though because WebKit is already secured by Apple but if you have multiple blink related apps like Microsoft edge or brave or Firefox apple will have to audit those too and be on the hook if something breaks and then Apple will have to take the blame over a security oversight they aren’t responsible for.

So extending this logic to other platforms: if Chrome has a security bug on Windows... you believe people will blame Microsoft? And you think that would be valid justification for Microsoft pushing a "security update" that uninstalls all competing browsers and replaces them with Edge?
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