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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#81

Post by zadokshi »

deminature wrote: post #54
SllX wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if the alternative is allowing other browsers to install them without a privacy and security architecture in place first. Even if Apple thinks it’s worth doing, that takes time, and web developers aren’t worth prioritizing for them when they have a lot of other ground to cover building out a new system of APIs and entitlements to comply with the DMA’s other requirements.

The user is warned already on the App Store that installing apps from third-parties comes with certain risks via 'scare screens'. There's no reason they can't do the same for PWAs.

No one meads “scare screens”.

I’m. It sure what I think about this yet, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to land on “allowing less privacy aware browsers to run web “apps” with heightened privileges seems like a recipe for disaster.

Maybe in the long term ther is a way to do it well. But for now I’m not sure.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#82

Post by vdaea »

luuurker wrote: post #64
lannisterstark wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just not.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

He's not necessarily siding with Apple. He's pointing out they don't have to do that.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#84

Post by dylan604 »

rimunroe wrote: post #33
akaij wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think any other interpretation is extremely naive.

Could you explain why?

naive people accept at face value PR speak. unwilling to look past that and look for other ulterior motives even less charitable ones would pretty much be textbook naivety to me.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#85

Post by npunt »

sigmar wrote: post #17
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

tbh, I thought the summary in techcrunch was much easier to read and concise. >Browsers also could install web apps on the system without a user’s awareness and consent. Couldn't this be entirely solved with an OS permission-like prompt "are you sure you want [progressive web app name] added to home screen?"

You don't want random processes firing off permissions prompts, you want them to remain meaningful to users on a platform else they'll get prompt fatigue. Think of all the prompts users see and just press 'ok' to.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#86

Post by deminature »

zadokshi wrote: post #81
deminature wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user is warned already on the App Store that installing apps from third-parties comes with certain risks via 'scare screens'. There's no reason they can't do the same for PWAs.

No one meads “scare screens”. I’m. It sure what I think about this yet, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to land on “allowing less privacy aware browsers to run web “apps” with heightened privileges seems like a recipe for disaster. Maybe in the long term ther is a way to do it well. But for now I’m not sure.

Every app on iOS is sandboxed and the damage they can do is very limited. There's risks involved in opening up to third-party apps, and PWAs are only marginally more dangerous. Non-WebKit based browsers don't even exist today, this is not a real problem and won't be for some time.

The obvious solution for now is to enable WebKit PWAs and turn on PWAs for other as-yet uninvented custom browsers as they release, testing for privacy as they get released.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#87

Post by SllX »

deminature wrote: post #69
SllX wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably will if they ever re-enable it in the EU, but they also built out over 600 new APIs and an accompanying system of entitlements to go with that scare sheet such that even if it’s “riskier”, they’re not just throwing up their hands and saying “alright devs, we scared them a little, so now go do whatever the hell you want”. EDIT: I should also add that of those 600, that includes APIs Apple built out speci…

I think PWA developers are going to be pretty unsympathetic to 'your PWA is going be available again in the EU at some unspecified time in the future, when some Apple product manager decides to prioritize it for a given year's roadmap and it's all in the interests of protecting users from unspecified privacy and security threats that nobody seems to be able to define'. Most importantly, the EU may feel the same way.

Well to correct you, my position is more “Apple might re-enable this” more than “will”, which from their perspective I’m guessing is even worse and they will be more unsympathetic to it.

Personally I think Apple will, but I have enough doubts that I don’t want to make that claim.

> Most importantly, the EU may feel the same way.

That’s the rub. The EU has been arbitrarily writing new laws which mostly target foreign tech companies that don’t quite read “show me your bellies so we can pick out the choice cuts” but they’re pretty close. So the EU might do a lot of things, but if there’s an argument against them doing that, it’s what I said in my first comment above: it’s not worth any jurisdiction’s time to do so. That includes the EU.

You might need to support some technologies to get government contracts, but nobody ever mandated you had to support POSIX or J2ME or whatever to sell a computer or phone to regular people. That would be asinine, and a PWA mandate would also be asinine.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#88

Post by jeremyjh »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #56
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The technical justification are bullshit. They simply could ask browser vendor to follow strict rules, that they can check themselves. This is not like they would have to verify dozens of browsers every day. Only a few per months, top.

They are not saying it is impossible, only that they have not done it. How long do you think it will take to spin up such a review and certification program? How much will it cost, and how many sales will they lose because of the lack of this feature in the EU?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#89

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

summerlight wrote: post #65
zer00eyz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

Why should we trust Apple for security in that context? Apple also provides all those functionalities via their proprietary API, which is not even audit-able. If Apple really believes in that argument, they should disable their own API as well.

[flagged]

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#90

Post by TheGlav »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #56
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The technical justification are bullshit. They simply could ask browser vendor to follow strict rules, that they can check themselves. This is not like they would have to verify dozens of browsers every day. Only a few per months, top.

Browsers need to run javascript to be competitive browsers. It would be practically impossible to check even simple "strict rules".
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