Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

scottporad.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 159 posts

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#91

Post by michaelneale »

arethuza wrote: post #33
michaelneale wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - this article makes the very common (still) (1) mistake of thinking construction of software == writing code. Construction of software is compiler/interpreter/all the machinery that kicks in to take some text or instructions and makes it do something. To correct the analogy with building physical things - you could compare the architect designing a bridge (and arguing with engineers about materials and budge…

The idea that code is the design and it's the compiler doing the construction has been around for quite a long time: http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/articles/reeves_design_m...

Thanks - yes I thought it was an old idea (might even be older - but I can't find anything).

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#92

Post by nahname »

bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

Look at your own experience, the building phase in the design phase. We will (almost) never get a complete spec before hand because people are in charge and people change their minds. The sad reality is that building something with developers is often a faster, cheaper way to discover what is actually needed. Most people cannot tell you what they want until it is right in front of them and even then the response is usually, "Not this".

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#93

Post by dhimes »

kahawe wrote: post #89
trustfundbaby wrote: post #48

brilliant comment in the original post, just in case anybody missed it "When I had my bathroom remodelled, at first I thought it was organized amazingly well and why couldn’t software be like that? There was a designer from Expo, a primary contractor and subcontractors for tiling, painting, etc. a project workbook containing all the documents, including the design, and a logbook for every contractor to record their v…

To be fair, I can see one difference, though, at least here in Euroland: you have all sorts of standards and regulations that buildings and contractors have to adhere to and especially on bigger changes or constructions you would get an independent expert to check whether your contractors and subcontractors did obey all the rules and when they frakked up somewhere along the way, they have to fix it, typically on thei…

We have regulations here in the US also (I had my house rebuilt 10 years ago and recently turned an outdoor deck into an indoor office). But our regulations are primarily safety-related. The wiring must be safe, the pipes plumbed so that drains drain and vents vent, and so on. They don't really inspect the quality of the craftsmanship. If your wall is not load-bearing, they care very little at all about how it is built. The tiles aligning? Your problem.

So, here anyway, it is also safety which triggers the regulations.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#94

Post by jakeonthemove »

Because software is nowhere near as mature as machines - give it a few decades and the process will be very automated, for sure. Even now you can build simple apps with drag-n-drop, and you can make your computer do anything you want using automation tools like Automate/WinAutomation.

Also, the whole post is a big subscribe link for me when NoScript is enabled (pretty smart, actually, if it's not a bug).

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#95

Post by tgrass »

bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

I'm a civil engineer (five years) and have never been on a project that avoided the problems of a custom poorly specificied software build.

Civil projects are a constant dialogue between client and engineer - but we get further monkey wrenched by one additional stakeholder that software doesn't have: local and at times federal government review. If you think software dev is difficult now, wait til your code is regulated.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#96

Post by peterwwillis »

You know, it's really easy to build a car.

All you need is wheels, brakes, a frame, a power source, a transmission, some fuel, and some crap to connect the power to the transmission to the wheels and the wheels to the frame. And a seat. Oh, and a steering wheel. Boom. Done.

You can hand-build a car by yourself over a couple days. I mean sure, the engine, transmission, frame, wheels, tires, seat, gas tank, carburetor, brakes, etc are all manufactured by hundreds of people and dozens of companies to get you to that point. But basically, you decide what components to use and how to put them together. It takes you a relatively minute amount of time to assemble them and it's much easier than trying to manufacture all the parts yourself.

Somehow, after building cars for over 200 years, both hobbyists and huge corporations find new ways to build them (and seem to enjoy themselves). They even come out with new ones every couple years and keep finding people to buy them. You'd think the general public would wise up to the fact that it's all the same thing over and over and demand our jetson cars already.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#98

Post by itmag »

yaix wrote: post #83
trustfundbaby wrote: post #48

brilliant comment in the original post, just in case anybody missed it "When I had my bathroom remodelled, at first I thought it was organized amazingly well and why couldn’t software be like that? There was a designer from Expo, a primary contractor and subcontractors for tiling, painting, etc. a project workbook containing all the documents, including the design, and a logbook for every contractor to record their v…

Only difference, its really hard to do "git reset HEAD" when the bath tub didn't fit.

I would tell them to "git r dun" :)

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#99

Post by j-b »

tgrass wrote: post #95
bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

I'm a civil engineer (five years) and have never been on a project that avoided the problems of a custom poorly specificied software build. Civil projects are a constant dialogue between client and engineer - but we get further monkey wrenched by one additional stakeholder that software doesn't have: local and at times federal government review. If you think software dev is difficult now, wait til your code is regula…

My code is regulated. I develop retail point of sale technology which requires certification with various state agencies such as WIC. Each state likes to do things just a bit differently, which keeps things interesting to say the least.

Re: Why do web sites and software take so long to build? And why is it so hard?

#100

Post by joshcrews »

fridek wrote: post #54
bigiain wrote: post #31

My opinion? Because as much as the software industry loves to adopt the work "engineer", almost none of the sort of websites and software discussed here on HN ever gets anything much like "engineering" in the sense of, say, "civil engineering" done. I think in my ~20year career, I've had only 3 projects that were specified well enough up front that we just "built it according to the plans" and had a satisfied custome…

I was working as a freelancer for a long time and I had a quite simple solution for lack of documentation. Before the first meeting I'd send a customer 12-page form to fill which covered most of the "what and why" of the project. It quickly turned out that most of people have no idea whatsoever about the product they wanted to buy. I know that it's partly our job to guide people through rough path, but if all custome…

The projects I do have never had final documentation before development started, and its not necessary.

I got this process from another Ruby consultant and it works great - Get wireframes of main page views (usually there are about 6 of these. You can help them create this - Get them to write out, or describe the requirements and take notes - Break the wireframes and requirements into user stories and load it into pivotal tracker with estimates - Tell them "we are going to build all these user stories PLUS 30 'freebie' points of stores. Any changes you want you can spend your freebie points on, and after that you can substitute out currently scheduled points if you really want those changes

It works great so far.

Post reply on HN