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Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

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Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#21

Post by speleding »

terhechte wrote: post #9

The conference where she delivered the speech was at the re:publica in Berlin ( http://re-publica.de/12/ ). I've seen her talk in entirety on Friday, and I was deeply impressed with her opinions. Usually, when politicians (particularly older politicians) talk about Internet topics, their opinion is mingled with half-knowledge and the hope to enslave the internet and make it a read-only thing. However, Kroess' speeach…

I agree she is awesome (I'm biased as being both Dutch and liberal myself) but it is important to note that the reason she can speak so frankly is that she is on her last term. (She has said she is too old to stand for re-election next term)

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#22

Post by fauigerzigerk »

bOR_ wrote: post #20
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't so happy about her work as competition commissioner. They went very far in the direction of price fixing. For instance, the EC tells telcos what to charge for roaming even though no one can claim that the telecom sector isn't very competitive. It's cut throat actually.

I understand the the telco's are very competitive, but for some reason, free market competition appeared to fail to have an effect on prices like texting or data roaming. Oddly enough, you roam through various network using the internet, and there free market seems to have worked between fiber providers into keeping the prices low and efficiency high. It seems that Kroes only launched the inquiry into telco's as part…

The price of something being "high" doesn't mean there is a market failure. It may just be an expression of customer preferences. If high roaming fees are used to subsidise cheap local calls and data plans, that may be a problem for EU officials who travel a lot, but it may be exactly what regular folks want.

The job of the competition commission is to make sure there is real competition, but what they have done is plain old price fixing. In this case, their actions make low income people subsidise the mobile life-style of high income people.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#23

Post by bOR_ »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #22
bOR_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the the telco's are very competitive, but for some reason, free market competition appeared to fail to have an effect on prices like texting or data roaming. Oddly enough, you roam through various network using the internet, and there free market seems to have worked between fiber providers into keeping the prices low and efficiency high. It seems that Kroes only launched the inquiry into telco's as part…

The price of something being "high" doesn't mean there is a market failure. It may just be an expression of customer preferences. If high roaming fees are used to subsidise cheap local calls and data plans, that may be a problem for EU officials who travel a lot, but it may be exactly what regular folks want. The job of the competition commission is to make sure there is real competition, but what they have done is p…

Isn't it actually the reverse?: don't the EU actions actually stop the previous practice of Telco's to subsidize the calling behavior of the majority by adding additional fees to a smaller group that heavily uses roaming?

I'm not sure what the free-market theory on that is (it is an interesting topic though) - making a smaller group of customers pay (and have limited alternatives but to pay) to be more competitive in other parts of your market.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#24

Post by fauigerzigerk »

bOR_ wrote: post #23
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of something being "high" doesn't mean there is a market failure. It may just be an expression of customer preferences. If high roaming fees are used to subsidise cheap local calls and data plans, that may be a problem for EU officials who travel a lot, but it may be exactly what regular folks want. The job of the competition commission is to make sure there is real competition, but what they have done is p…

Isn't it actually the reverse?: don't the EU actions actually stop the previous practice of Telco's to subsidize the calling behavior of the majority by adding additional fees to a smaller group that heavily uses roaming? I'm not sure what the free-market theory on that is (it is an interesting topic though) - making a smaller group of customers pay (and have limited alternatives but to pay) to be more competitive in…

Yes, I think that's exactly what happened before the prices were fixed and it's a completely normal facet of markets. You could make a case that governments should protect minorities. But I see a couple of issues in this case:

The competition commission doesn't have a legal mandate to give preferencial treatment to minorities. They have a very clear mandate and they should stick to it in the interest of seperation of concerns.

The particular minority concerned in this case is a rather wealthy one that benefits from free markets in other respects more than the average person. They don't need extra help from governments.

Helping minorities by fixing individual prices tends to be inflexible because any change in the underlying economics or social culture has to be to be compensated with new regulation which often doesn't happen in a timely fashion.

Preferencial treatment for minorities should, in my view, focus on life and death issues, freedom of expression, legal matters, etc.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#25

Post by CaptainZapp »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #18
bOR_ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's great (or at least the dutch think she is), and did a good job as well when she was commissioner on competition, handing out some big fines to business cartels. see http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a854010e-dd84-11db-8d42-000b5df106... I think we first were a bit disappointed that she was no longer keeping businesses on the straight and narrow, when she moved from competition to the digital agenda: it seemed like she…

I wasn't so happy about her work as competition commissioner. They went very far in the direction of price fixing. For instance, the EC tells telcos what to charge for roaming even though no one can claim that the telecom sector isn't very competitive. It's cut throat actually.

A bit of revisionist history here?

The prices charged for roaming where insanely and artificially high.

The EU commission provided multiple opportunities for the telcos to get their act together, which they didn't. Enforcing fair prices within the common market is exactly one of the missions of the EU commissioner in charge.

No wonder that the telcos hate it, but in this regard there was no competition. They all gouged their customers mercilessly until the EU put a stop on this.

[EDIT: clarification]

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#26

Post by terhechte »

terhechte wrote: post #9

The conference where she delivered the speech was at the re:publica in Berlin ( http://re-publica.de/12/ ). I've seen her talk in entirety on Friday, and I was deeply impressed with her opinions. Usually, when politicians (particularly older politicians) talk about Internet topics, their opinion is mingled with half-knowledge and the hope to enslave the internet and make it a read-only thing. However, Kroess' speeach…

Addendum, here're a couple of her positions that I remember. (Caveat, as it happens with human memory being prone to error, there may be wrong facts):

- She's absolutely for Network neutrality especially on mobile devices

- She's against censoring the internet since it's far too valuable to modern democracies

- She even went so far and flew over to an eastern-european country that wanted to impose internet censoring laws and convinced them to hold back.

- She said that we need to make sure to protect children that surf the internet but without any kind of censorship. Especially she said (and I found that impressive) that children in road traffic aren't safe either, but that does not mean that we should forbid road traffic. Instead parents have to take care and be responsible, and she said the internet has to be handled similarly. I found that impressive because 'protecting the children' is usually the main argument of choice when a politician tries to undermine or censor the internet.

- She stated that she's urging all european countries to increase the amount of internet users they have. She stated that she finds it deeply shocking that, i.e., Italy had only 41% people who ever used the internet (here, the number might be the other way around, I don't remember anymore), and that we need to make sure that more people use it as soon as possible.

She said more but I can't remember it anymore.

(Edit, added list items)

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#27

Post by AnthonyMouse »

redthrowaway wrote: post #16
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. It's true that you can't just have Congress pass a law that says "future Congresses can't do xyz," because future Congresses can just repeal it. But you can do something even better. Pass legislation that takes a step in the other direction. Repeal the DMCA anti-circumvention clause and demand an international treaty that requires other countries to do likewise. Reduce copyright terms. Eliminate statutory…

All of this is predicated on having a government that makes wise policy choices as opposed to acting in the self-perceived interests of its sponsors. The USG is not such a government.

They say you get the government that you deserve. If you don't think you deserve what you have, maybe you should get something else.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#28

Post by fauigerzigerk »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #25
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't so happy about her work as competition commissioner. They went very far in the direction of price fixing. For instance, the EC tells telcos what to charge for roaming even though no one can claim that the telecom sector isn't very competitive. It's cut throat actually.

A bit of revisionist history here? The prices charged for roaming where insanely and artificially high. The EU commission provided multiple opportunities for the telcos to get their act together, which they didn't. Enforcing fair prices within the common market is exactly one of the missions of the EU commissioner in charge. No wonder that the telcos hate it, but in this regard there was no competition. They all goug…

I'm not a telco, nor do I work for one. I'm a consumer, so the reason why I hate this is not the same reason why the telcos hate it. Their interest is to make money. My interest as an EU citizen is good governance. Countries where arbitrary prices are fixed for populist reasons tend to be poor.

The competition commission should make sure that the markets aren't rigged and leave it to the market to determine the right price. I'm not saying markets always work well, but the telecoms market does.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#29

Post by CaptainZapp »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #28
CaptainZapp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of revisionist history here? The prices charged for roaming where insanely and artificially high. The EU commission provided multiple opportunities for the telcos to get their act together, which they didn't. Enforcing fair prices within the common market is exactly one of the missions of the EU commissioner in charge. No wonder that the telcos hate it, but in this regard there was no competition. They all goug…

I'm not a telco, nor do I work for one. I'm a consumer, so the reason why I hate this is not the same reason why the telcos hate it. Their interest is to make money. My interest as an EU citizen is good governance. Countries where arbitrary prices are fixed for populist reasons tend to be poor. The competition commission should make sure that the markets aren't rigged and leave it to the market to determine the right…

  market to determine the right price. I'm not saying markets always work well, but the telecoms market does.
While I agree that this may be true on a national level I disagree that this applies when it comes to roaming.

Example? I'm charged 4 Euros (5$ +) for 1MB of data. Overseas I may be charged as much as 17EUR for a MB.

This is not a reasonable price determined by a free market, but price gouging and I can't switch to an alternative service provider.

At least - thanks to the wide availabilty of WiFi - I do have an alternative to such obscene prices.

For voice calls this is not the case. So I for one salute the EU's efforts to curb an out of control market.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Re: Kroes Throws in Towel on ACTA

#30

Post by fauigerzigerk »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #29
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a telco, nor do I work for one. I'm a consumer, so the reason why I hate this is not the same reason why the telcos hate it. Their interest is to make money. My interest as an EU citizen is good governance. Countries where arbitrary prices are fixed for populist reasons tend to be poor. The competition commission should make sure that the markets aren't rigged and leave it to the market to determine the right…

market to determine the right price. I'm not saying markets always work well, but the telecoms market does. While I agree that this may be true on a national level I disagree that this applies when it comes to roaming. Example? I'm charged 4 Euros (5$ +) for 1MB of data. Overseas I may be charged as much as 17EUR for a MB. This is not a reasonable price determined by a free market, but price gouging and I can't switc…

I think our dispute comes down to a single question: Are high prices alone proof enough of a dysfunctional market? You seem to say that by definition excessive prices are a market failure that has to be fixed by the government. I disagree. I think the standard of proof has to be higher than that.

If governments effectively start to target profit margins for particular services it will result in massive misallocation of capital. The prices of basic services will go up and innovation will suffer, because one reason for innovating is to earn very high margins for a while until cheaper alternatives become available.

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