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Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

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Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#111

Post by chii »

breather wrote: post #56
epistasis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have some weird definition of "developer" then, something that's not compatible with what I'm talking about. Who built all the brownstones in New York, for example? Today, they'd be called developers. What is your definition?

Again, american cities are a small fraction of the world.

So other than naturally formed caves, everything else is built by, you guessed it, developers. It's just an umberalla term - you might call it builders in some other parts of the world.

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#112

Post by candiodari »

hackerlight wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If capsule housing or cramped tenements were allowed, economics would push already-housed people down into them, rather than raise unhoused people up into them. Everything is a race to the bottom. For example, let’s say the worst homes in your area legally allowed to be occupied are currently renting for $500/mo. Now capsule housing suddenly becomes legal. They’re not going to magically cost less. Landlords already k…

Your conclusion rests on a likely false assumption that things remain expensive in a world where more housing isn't illegal. If capsule (and indeed, all) housing is no longer illegal, the price of everything falls. Regular one-bedroom unit rental will become affordable for the majority of people, so there will be no desire to downgrade to a capsule home. This is not Hong Kong where land is so scarce that even buildin…

Yeah, sorry, but this argument totally stops making sense when you consider:

1) safety: obviously people would not be safe in capsule hotels. This cannot be changed, and would fundamentally alter society if it became popular

2) It applies to other forms of safety. Collapse safety? Why? It's cheaper without (and the state will have to pay most damages anyway). Medical safety (e.g. anti-mold regulation)? Why?

Such a policy will not drop prices, except the sticker price and will cause untold misery in society. We can discuss individual measures, perhaps, but not that a lot of these price increasing really contribute to society.

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#113

Post by maxerickson »

makeitdouble wrote: post #69
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. This is only a problem if it's prohibited by zoning. Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price. Houses in the suburbs often contain a large amount of space with no windows, i.e. a basement the size of the entire first floor, and no one objects because it can be used for storage or…

> Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price This is one of my nightmares. What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. > Houses in the suburbs often c…

So is your argument that we have to have bad regulation because if we don't, we might have bad regulation?

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#114

Post by sandworm101 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #27
keiferski wrote: post #15

Only speaking from my personal travel experiences, not any hard data, but: I feel like this issue is nearly non-existent in places with mixed use zoning. If the office values go down in a place with equal amounts of housing, they are repurposed as new apartments. The problem is when the office architecture isn’t interchangeable with apartment architecture, which usually happens because certain areas are zoned as offi…

There might be many issues with the gap in construction standards for offices and housings. A very dumb one: windows are required for houses, where offices can get away with huge open spaces holding a central hub of indoor areas. It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. Then plumbing, evacuation paths etc. can all be solved by…

Bedrooms must have windows. That isnt "very dumb". That is based on centuries of knowledge. It is fire code. It is for comfort. It is for health. Some think it anachronistic only because few alive today have ever lived without it. But forgetting the reasons behind a rule does not make that rule unnecessary. And a rule isnt dumb simply because it decreases profit margins. All rules do.

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#115

Post by Retric »

sandworm101 wrote: post #114
makeitdouble wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be many issues with the gap in construction standards for offices and housings. A very dumb one: windows are required for houses, where offices can get away with huge open spaces holding a central hub of indoor areas. It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. Then plumbing, evacuation paths etc. can all be solved by…

Bedrooms must have windows. That isnt "very dumb". That is based on centuries of knowledge. It is fire code. It is for comfort. It is for health. Some think it anachronistic only because few alive today have ever lived without it. But forgetting the reasons behind a rule does not make that rule unnecessary. And a rule isnt dumb simply because it decreases profit margins. All rules do.

Fire codes require multiple exists not specifically windows that can be used as exists. Which is why people can live on the 30+ floor of buildings without fire escapes. Many people prefer sleeping in rooms without windows or block up existing windows.

Historically, these regulations were created to exclude the poor from areas. They do line up with most peoples preferences, but many would rather save in rent vs have a window.

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#117

Post by Macha »

vkou wrote: post #86
makeitdouble wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price This is one of my nightmares. What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. > Houses in the suburbs often c…

> This is one of my nightmares. What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. > My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. The social consequences of getting rid of tenements have been people sleepi…

There was plenty of homelessness in the era of tenements too.

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#118

Post by [deleted] »

chongli wrote: post #78
epistasis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite what they might oppose, as part of their profession they must uphold the determinations of the stakeholders. The purpose of a system is what it does. The supposed opposition of planners, a completely ineffectual and meaningless opposition that has zero effect on any policy outcome, does not change the fact that planning as a profession ends up being this means to an end.

Urban planners are people, not systems. Firefighters oppose fires and try to put them out, yet fires still happen. Would you say that the purpose of firefighting is to burn down houses?

[deleted]

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#119

Post by paulsutter »

sandworm101 wrote: post #114
makeitdouble wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be many issues with the gap in construction standards for offices and housings. A very dumb one: windows are required for houses, where offices can get away with huge open spaces holding a central hub of indoor areas. It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. Then plumbing, evacuation paths etc. can all be solved by…

Bedrooms must have windows. That isnt "very dumb". That is based on centuries of knowledge. It is fire code. It is for comfort. It is for health. Some think it anachronistic only because few alive today have ever lived without it. But forgetting the reasons behind a rule does not make that rule unnecessary. And a rule isnt dumb simply because it decreases profit margins. All rules do.

If a bedroom on the 33rd floor has sealed windows, what’s the rescue benefit or health benefit? (asking as a person who has lived in such a bedroom and sometimes slept in the closet to avoid noise and light)

Re: Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick up at deep discounts

#120

Post by chollida1 »

keiferski wrote: post #15

Only speaking from my personal travel experiences, not any hard data, but: I feel like this issue is nearly non-existent in places with mixed use zoning. If the office values go down in a place with equal amounts of housing, they are repurposed as new apartments. The problem is when the office architecture isn’t interchangeable with apartment architecture, which usually happens because certain areas are zoned as offi…

THis is a nice thought but rarely happens regardless of zoning.

Office buildings floor plates and residential floor plates aren't really compatable.

Office buildings have most of their floor plates not around windows, where are residential needs some light.

Also water, and sewer need to be retrofitted.

The one building that was a successful conversion that I know of cut out the center of the building to create a light corridor down the center of the building.

The Odd lots podcast had a recent episode on this and the guest said that converting office to residential is often more expensive than rebuilding.

So you've got a good though but its rarely practical in the larger city style office buildings.

Perhaps smaller density 6 story buildings would be easier to do?

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