Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Goodbye Auth0

joshcanhelp.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 281 posts

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#41

Post by rjzzleep »

throwaway11073 wrote: post #34
sksksk wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country was this? If it was a European subsidiary, then would you have not have been subject to the employment protection of the country's laws?

Sure - in most EU countries, especially to the east, they get some additional money (usually 1-6 months of wages + unused vacation days). That's about it. I don't know why people think it's not possible to fire people in the EU, but it is and it's a normal thing. It just costs some money.

It is possible, but if someone does whatthe parent described like that in Europe, you get more than that and you could walk out of there with your laptop and nobody would be able to stop you, and if they did, you'd probably get more than 6 months of wages.

There is a process to firing. EVEN in the US there is a process of firing. The big lie is that most people are fed, is that in "right to work" states you have no legal recourse. You do, but not if you take the severance and sign your leave papers, because you panic right away. Something I didn't know either in the US.

The most important rule my (senior) friend once told me is to document everything, especially when your bosses make you do something that you feel uncomfortable with. Print emails if you have to and put them in a folder that you might never have to open if you're lucky.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#42

Post by ricardobeat »

gabrielgio wrote: post #12
sushibowl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal require…

> In the US no notice is legally required. Required or allowed? So in the US you can't give notice?

If you’re asking about resigning as an employee, it seems to work the same way: legally speaking, you could just stop showing up from one day to the next.

I imagine most of the time people will have the courtesy of giving 1-2 weeks notice if possible.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#44

Post by loloquwowndueo »

buro9 wrote: post #36

This bit at the end: > and learned an enormous amount about what it means to build and run a people-first company Seems at odds with this bit at the beginning: > And then it happened, I got the email. Slack didn't work. My laptop restarted and came back with accounts missing. It really, actually happened. And even though the writing seemed to be on the wall, I was still caught a bit off guard. This industry (not spec…

The “people first” company was Auth0. The company that sent the email and terminated access instantly was Okta.

Fairly clear to me.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#45

Post by diggan »

throwaway11073 wrote: post #34
sksksk wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country was this? If it was a European subsidiary, then would you have not have been subject to the employment protection of the country's laws?

Sure - in most EU countries, especially to the east, they get some additional money (usually 1-6 months of wages + unused vacation days). That's about it. I don't know why people think it's not possible to fire people in the EU, but it is and it's a normal thing. It just costs some money.

> I don't know why people think it's not possible to fire people in the EU, but it is and it's a normal thing. It just costs some money.

It varies across Europe as well. Some countries, like Sweden, have more protections than others (no matter if union member or not), as an example. You cannot fire someone unless they demonstrably neglect their work duties and the firing overall needs to be objectively justified. Then the notice period depends on how long you've worked there, and more conditions I surely can't remember right now.

Compared to Spain that has "disciplinary dismissal" for example, where "insubordination" or "lack of discipline" could be enough to get you fired.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#46

Post by sumuyuda »

Scarblac wrote: post #35
sushibowl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal require…

> Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. That doesn't follow at all. The notice period exists so you can transfer your knowledge and projects to colleagues who will take over your work. If the notice period is in the company interest when people leave on their own, it's also in the company's interest when they have to leave?

The notice period also exists so you can find a new job and aren’t immediately out on the street like in the US.

It is both in the interest of the company and employee, as neither can terminate the contract immediately.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#47

Post by chippiewill »

maxehmookau wrote: post #8
edent wrote: post #2

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/

Join. A. Union. https://utaw.tech/join/ also good. Think of it as having an employment lawyer on retainer for £8 a month. Well worth the money.

Unfortunately like student unions they don't keep the focus on their actual remit and delving into irrelevant politics: https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#48

Post by diggan »

Vinnl wrote: post #37
edent wrote: post #2

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/

Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)

> Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries?

Technically, that company should have a subsidiary for each country they're employing people full-time in. So you'd work with the local union + local subsidiary, just like it was a local company.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#49

Post by Vinnl »

edent wrote: post #38
Vinnl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)

Each country has its own unique employment laws. So you would need a different Union in each country. In the UK, for example, it doesn't matter how small your employer is - you still have the right to have your Trade Union representative with you in certain meetings.

Right, having someone in meetings is nice, but I'm thinking more in terms of collective bargaining, being involved in layoffs (e.g. making sure that every effort has been made to move/retrain people) and all that.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#50

Post by _cenw »

rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

I had a job I referred my spouse to. The team she was in had some reservations, but nothing that couldn't be addressed, essentially a bit of temperament by culture shock young talented engineers tend to have on their first or second job. But the HR person assigned took the entire next year off, so she did not get any feedback except from her boss, who said everything was fine. Another feedback round got delayed for the next 3 months because someone on the team was sick, and eventually her delayed "team feedback round" appointment changed to one with HR, in which they fired her "just in case it was still a problem".

That was the only time I've seen someone completely locked out - in Germany. She couldn't even complete the normal offboarding, because her building access was revoked, and the company didn't have an alternative process, so I had to bring it in, where people would agree with me that it was a process failure, and that they were very sorry, but not sorry enough to tell it to my spouse's face.

That work relationship didn't last long after.

Post reply on HN