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Goodbye Auth0

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Re: Goodbye Auth0

#21

Post by mytailorisrich »

Keirmot wrote: post #15
mytailorisrich wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the "European culture", which I am not sure exists as one on this issue. I have seen many times people be quickly "locked out" when being laid off. A term for this in the UK is "garden leave" because you're still paid but you're told not to work or come to the office anymore. As the case may be this makes sense in order to avoid any issues (from bad blood in the office to actively malicious actions) and,…

Garden leave also happens in Portugal, but only when the relation between employer and employee deteriorated to the point of no return. As an example in the same company I had a co-worker layed off with 3 months notice, while in the previous year a different person in the same team was called to HR during the day, and let go - we all found out he was fired on the next daily stand up.

Well, if you're fired it's either that your performance was inadequate or that you did something serious enough. In the latter case, in general there is no notice period and in the former, well obviously they don't want you around anymore...

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#22

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

> I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one.

Personal bias? Layoffs/Firing etc. in Austria in IT look very much the same. You're locked out, your devices are taken, you are escorted out of the office. That has nothing to do with being afraid, it's just a clear cut process. Why make it ambiguous?

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#24

Post by rglullis »

rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

Americans don't understand/trust/respect institutions.

Because they don't trust institutions, if someone that is working for a company and does something bad, or is shown to be corrupt, it will affect the public perception of the company, not of the individual.

Also, because Americans don't trust institutions, a lot of the internal processes and cultural values are upheld by the individuals, and how strongly this is done depends on the individual's power and ability to influence. This applies to all levels of the organization. This allows for the organization as a whole to be more dynamic and effective, but the downside is that this works only when the individuals have a vested interest in the organization.

When there is a layoff, or even when a simple individual is fired, this mutual alignment is removed and all bets are off. Except for fear of legal retaliation, the individual is no longer bound to the organization. This can lead to things like:

- Executives preempting the communication of their firing and using it to swing internal opinion, or even taking key team members away with them, like Sam Altman vs OpenAI.

- Employees with access to (supposedly) restricted areas copying sensitive information: E.g, sales reps getting data from all their clients to contact them and move them along.

- Plain old espionage / sabotage. Don't forget, if a company is laying people off it means they are not doing well, and if they are not doing well means they certainly want to keep as much of what is "really happening" to themselves. Fired employees can use their internal communications to gather evidence from their boss wrongdoings, find internal memos and share with journalists willing to get a scoop, etc.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#25

Post by dontlaugh »

edent wrote: post #2

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/

And if you work in the games industry, there's https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#26

Post by dspillett »

gabrielgio wrote: post #12
sushibowl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal require…

> In the US no notice is legally required. Required or allowed? So in the US you can't give notice?

I think you've read that wrong.

It is probably better phrased as “In the US, notice is not legally required”.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#27

Post by matsemann »

sushibowl wrote: post #9
rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal require…

Not only do you have to give notice, but here in Norway you also have to include employee reps and follow a strict process. Part of that process is to define criteria for how to determine who should stay or go. Then after notifying the employees about the ongoing reduction, each employee should have the opportunity to discuss with their superiors how they fit the criteria or if there are other roles in the company they could fill. And then at a set time the actual layoffs will be announced.

So it's virtually unheard of to show up, hear about layoffs, and not have a job the next day. Unless it's a situation where the whole company is going bankrupt or so.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#28

Post by dkobia »

rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

This is a typical approach for SaaS companies - especially ones that house sensitive data like Okta/Auth0. A CISO’s nightmare is someone who’s been laid off, disgruntled and still has access to the network.

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#29

Post by raverbashing »

sushibowl wrote: post #9
rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal require…

The notice period is mostly monetary. 30 days notice means you should pay for that time, but having the person actually work is optional (if you're being terminated)

Re: Goodbye Auth0

#30

Post by wouldbecouldbe »

glitchalumni wrote: post #16
rollulus wrote: post #4

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened durin…

Not sure which part of Europe you are referencing, but from the layoffs I've seen and heard of (DACH) the procedure was always to lock the person out immediately after the layoff call/meeting. If that's good or bad is rather subjective, personally I would rather walk out the door right after. One might have enough time to send their farewells, but that's about it - you are still getting payed until the end of the not…

Not sure, I haven't seen mass layoffs, but individual ones. Normally it's a contract ending not being renewed, or the trial period, often the employee is then still active for 1-3 months; till the contract ends.

It's rare it's immediate and if it is there needs be an agreed fee for termination.

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