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Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

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Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#71

Post by anotherthrow »

zbruhnke wrote: post #41

I'm not to 30 or 40 yet so I may not be your target audience here but I can comment on how it has affected me thus far and what I usually tell people about making this choice when it comes down to it. I dropped out at 20 as a Junior in college. I had scholarships to school and every reason to stay but I was already working long hours on a business I had started as a Freshman and had no intention of slowing down. We w…

> I think its fair to say most peoples successes or failures lie solely on themselves.

If that were true, wouldn't you expect economic and social mobility to be much higher?

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#72

Post by paulhauggis »

nirvana wrote: post #53
keiferski wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah man, you've really got some deep problem with college - you've written half a book on this page. Step out of the black-and-white world where college = follower and dropout = leader. It's perfectly possible to go to college and not be a "coasting weak success." For many people, college is a good experience. An experience worth 100k in debt? Probably not, but that's an extreme example. Maybe college wasn't for you…

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem Part of the reason I have written at such length is that the quality of the arguments for the other position are so very, very poor. And oft repeated.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make what the poster said an "ad hominem".

He made comments based on what you said, not assumptions about your character. If you love college and want everyone to go, then I guess he is wrong.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#73

Post by dwong »

Thanks for all the responses. Most of the responses that support going to college seem to argue based on the value of a degree, instead of the education and skills.

It seems that most of us agree that the education, skills, and networking can be found elsewhere. But there's also a decent consensus on the value of a degree.

nirvana, thanks for your input. I'll definitely consider your viewpoints and whether the piece of paper is worth it.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#74

Post by paulhauggis »

nirvana wrote: post #4

If you're an engineer, and you drop out and you work for 4-6 years, nobody is ever going to care, or probably know, that you don't have a degree. My personal experience was that I got a hell of a good job when looking for a summer job, and I just kept at it. I'm in my 40s now, and in my career, not having a degree has NEVER been the slightest problem. I was in such demand that I started limiting how many interviews I…

You don't see a problem that your one piece of anecdotal evidence isn't proof of it working like this everywhere?

"I'm in my 40s now, and in my career, not having a degree has NEVER been the slightest problem. "

I know plenty of people where it has been a problem. If I'm looking at two potential job candidates with exact same experience but one has a college degree and the other doesn't, guess which one I'm going to hire?

"I think a lot of people go to college and maybe they aren't' autodidacts or naturally talented and for them, they have to be trained to be programmers. "

nice. So you are lumping in people that go to college as less talented than you. You have no proof of this.

I went to college and got a degree. I've also been living and breathing code since I was 10. Most developers that I know that didn't go to college know don't know many of the theories behind algorithms and data types. Very few, for example, built their own compiler using their own simple language. Outside of academia, this has no practical application (unless you are building your own language) and most people are too busy with work or their own personal projects to work on something like this.

"But I think a lot of people with degrees develop a prejudice against those who don't have them."

Kind of like you develop a prejudice against people that have them?

"since college CS courses were pretty much a joke compared to where my ability was. (I did go to college for a couple years, but studied Physics. Much more challenging, though the money is in programming.)"

Right. You were too smart to finish college.

"Also, working with someone just out of college (not a programmer) has led me to discover that college doesn't actually train you to be an employee-- the first 2-4 years out of college is when you really learn the skills to be a professional."

College isn't a trade school. Also, this is why we have internships. Most people have already worked at a few large companies by their Senior year.

"I personally would probably give a little more weight to someone who is self taught, but of course"

Because you are prejudice against someone with a degree. It's obvious throughout all of your rants.

" I think its wrong of people who do discriminate against those who don't have a degree"

You are just as bad with your discrimination.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#75

Post by YuriNiyazov »

nirvana wrote: post #58
YuriNiyazov wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am actually really curious to know more details about what you do. For example: 1) Are you a developer? If so, do you ever find yourself missing the knowledge about low-level computer science? Let's say, how operating systems and filesystems are built under the covers, the internals of database systems, various algorithms that help solve problems quicker, etc. Do you see yourself working on problems that require th…

>If so, do you ever find yourself missing the knowledge about low-level computer science? Let's say, how operating systems and filesystems are built under the covers, the internals of database systems, various algorithms that help solve problems quicker, etc. You seem to be assuming that someone who hasn't gotten a college degree doesn't have this knowledge. I've spent a fair bit of time over the past 4 years reading…

What I am assuming is that someone who doesn't have a college degree has this knowledge in bits and pieces, accumulated randomly over the years. I don't mean to imply that knowledge accumulated in that way is insufficient in order to be a balls-out startup founder, or have a very high-paying job as a software engineer.

I left high school having a lot of programming experience already under my belt, and by then I've read quite a few CS books (the two "programming pearls", and the two "turing omnibus" books), and since then I've met quite a few people like myself, so a large part of what you are saying resonates with me.

However, I would argue that every so often there are problems that one encounters in software engineering for which a haphazard, practical education is insufficient, and only a very rigorous, "from the ground-up" education will do. For example, the sort of position that is nowadays advertised as a "data scientist", which is a very complex conglomerate of advanced mathematics and computer science.

I've never met someone who is a self-educated, no-college-degree data scientist, or audio-video-photo compression expert, or a computational finance guy. I will readily admit my limited sample, and I would be happy if you proved me wrong. Still - what concerns me is that the general view is that formal education is a waste, and what is consistently left aside is that there are many things that one can do for which a haphazard education is simply not enough.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#76

Post by easp »

nirvana wrote: post #62
keiferski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest now: if Google was pursuing your for months, and you've worked for Microsoft and Amazon, you aren't the average college student. Most people can't get a job for 50k+ out of school. And that's not even mentioning the fact that this is limited to consumer tech companies.

My point is this: Getting a job for $50k+ is easy when you've got four years of development experience behind you. That puts you ahead of the people just out of school. I can't speak about non-engineering professions. Its quite possible that the college degree prejudice is much more entrenched there. Doesn't make it any less arbitrary and silly, given the low (really, with only a few exceptions) level of education th…

You've made many references to engineering jobs, but many engineering professions require not four, but five years of college, with next to no option of employment, much less advancement without it.

Let's be clear, you are talking about software engineering.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#77

Post by easp »

nirvana wrote: post #5
xtx23 wrote: post #2

'cause if you aren't super successful or hardcore at it, you will reach a point of diminishing returns of things. Your peers in other professions will catch up to you in term of pay when you are 30~40. You will lose time to families, and trade that loss for more requirement for financial responsibilities. Also when it's 30~40 time, you end up facing who you really are, and some people'll have to accept the fact that…

People who skip college start out financially ahead of those who get a degree-- they spend 4 years getting work experience and hopefully saving that money. One of the major things about compounding is that the more you save early on, the bigger the impact than saving the same amount later. So, you avoid-- what $200k?-- in college tuition cost and instead earn something like $200k over those four years, and if you're…

Yes, that is your experience, and you seem very aggressive about offering it us as something more than what it is, an anecdote.

I don't think skipping college is necessarily a bad choice for some people, including you, but you are exhibiting a common trait of people who've been reasonably successful irregardless of the fact that they ended their formal education early, which is that they aren't aware of the shortcoming of their understanding of the world. In your case, I'll point out that most people end up working for 30-40 years, an early lead can fade.

Also, new grads from a good CS program can start well over $50k year these days, and many of them will have paid well-under full-price for tuition.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#78

Post by jones1618 »

nirvana wrote: post #60
jones1618 wrote: post #31

While you are in your prime "coding years", it doesn't matter. The problem with dropping out won't hit you until you hit the middle age inflection point: Go into management or career change or jump to a start up. Your competition that started with a B.S. at the same age or even a few years later probably didn't stand still and now have Master's degrees or MBAs. That's what you'd be up against. With the slow job marke…

If they got Masters or MBAs then they are even further behind and have even more to unlearn before they can be productive. Those people are earning less and are 4-6 years behind you on the advancement curve. The slope of that curve depends on your ability and dedication, not a piece of paper.

The problem is that the world isn't a perfect meritocracy. There's no objective way for someone who is in the position to give you a raise or a job can know precisely where you are on your ability and dedication curve. That's why "those people who are earning less" who happen to also have MS/MBA pieces of paper will look like a better deal. Also, those future bosses may see your extra 4-6 years as potential bad habits, entitlement and cynicism that you'd have to unlearn to be productive for them. I'm not saying it is fair or inevitable but it wouldn't hurt to arm yourself against degree-ism and agism any way that you can.

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#79

Post by CyberFonic »

nirvana wrote: post #61
CyberFonic wrote: post #13

Given two equally competent candidates, the one with the degree is usually the one who gets picked. A person who has a degree but isn't passionate will often get passed over, except in the most bureaucratic of organizations. The problem with autodidacts is that many don't know what they don't know and keep re-inventing stuff. Going to university exposes you to people who are heaps smarter than you and hopefully that…

The thing is, you take two people from the same graduating class and look at them four years later, one who went to college and the other who worked, and they won't be equally competent. One will be a new graduate and one will have 4 years experience. People will pick the experience (which is more valuable) every time. >The problem with autodidacts is that many don't know what they don't know and keep re-inventing st…

You make several good points. In my experience the autodidacts you describe are the exceptional ones. I have come across far more self-taught developers who lack the breadth of knowledge and yet think they have all the answers.

As for your comment about Steve Jobs, he is widely recognised as an exemplary outlier. Even so, Jobs was a visionary and an exceptional leader. But without the team of very capable and talented people he would not have achieved what they did as a team!

Re: Dropping out - how does it affect you later in life?

#80

Post by sharmanaetor »

nirvana wrote: post #37
sharmanaetor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have a college degree, it's highly unlikely that you will get into a reputed company, assuming any company is willing to hire you. This means lower experience and probably lower pay as well. So this means you will spend about 4 years not working to your maximum potential. A person who graduates will easily catch up 6-8 years after graduating. There are, of course, exceptions to the scenario described abo…

Let me guess, you're in college? >If you don't have a college degree, it's highly unlikely that you will get into a reputed company, assuming any company is willing to hire you. That's just silly. I have worked for Microsoft and Amazon, and HP and lots of other reputable companies. Google was pursuing me like crazy for months until I finally told them in no uncertain terms that I had no interest in working there. >So…

I'm not in college anymore. I graduated 4 years back and have been programming ever since. I've based my views on candidates that I have interviewed over the past few years.

Without exception, when a candidate comes in with no graduation and having done a basic 2 month programming course from some private institution, he lacks of a programmer. He may have some idea about his core specialty, but deviate even slightly from there and he is lost.

Alternately, a person with a graduate degree is much more likely to be a well-rounded programmer and has his basics in place.

I'm from India and I believe that the country you come from matters here. In India, society gives a lot of importance to a persons qualification. I guess this affects my views on the matter too.

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