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525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

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Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#81

Post by bryanlarsen »

tristor wrote: post #4
andy_ppp wrote: post #3

Anyone else think banning private jets would be generally a much better thing for climate? I find it pretty shocking the rich are allowed to pollute the way they do.

All aviation, altogether, private jets inclusive, is less than 3% of world emissions. Getting people fired up about rich people using private jets is just a distraction from the truth in the same way that paper straws are. The reality is that a small handful of industries generate the majority of pollution, and they have no meaningful regulatory pressure to stop, and that even that mostly pales in comparison to the e…

3% of 35 billion tonnes is a large number.

We might have been able to get away with a goal of non-zero if we had reduced carbon emissions 40 years ago, but now our goal is 0. So that means we must eliminate or sequester from all sectors, including aviation.

If you say "we should attack the bigger numbers first", well we have started those. We have started replacing electricity generation with renewables, started replacing ICE cars with electric, and started replacing fossil heating with electric heat pumps.

Banning private jets may be an unreasonable ask, but forcing private jets to 6x their fuel costs to use net-zero fuels is not an unreasonable ask, IMO.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#82

Post by baggy_trough »

Supermancho wrote: post #33
baggy_trough wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think getting rid of aviation is a simple thing?

>> 3% is a pretty big reduction for such a simple thing... > You think getting rid of aviation is a simple thing? That's not what was suggested, initially. Just the private jets. Then there have been some numbers thrown around, so it's not clear where the 3% comes from (1/2 of 7%?). Kneejerk opposition by taking the least charitable interpretation, is not constructive. One point is that something measurable, is actio…

I'm responding to the exact statement made, so I don't know what you're talking about regarding a least charitable interpretation.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#83

Post by avgcorrection »

baggy_trough wrote: post #22
avgcorrection wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people cause climate change by architecting society (just look around). Their private jets don’t matter in the grand scheme of things.

What does that mean?

I don’t understand the impasse. Do rich people have power or not? Are we complaining about them affording and using private jets and at the same time not believing that they have a large hand in shaping and ruling society as well?

Well I’m assuming that we are complaining about all the rich people and not just spoiled trust fund kids.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#84

Post by avgcorrection »

saintfire wrote: post #63
baggy_trough wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that mean?

I would assume by making decisions that push people towards technologies or lifestyles that have massive negative externalities but high profits (e.g. Car culture, unrepairable technology) or lobby for businesses/laws that are net negative for society (e.g. Oil & Gas, Pollution regulations for farming, energy and manufacturing). The private jet attention I think is perfectly valid but is akin to blaming people for th…

> I would assume by making decisions that push people towards technologies or lifestyles that have massive negative externalities but high profits (e.g. Car culture, unrepairable technology) or lobby for businesses/laws that are net negative for society (e.g. Oil & Gas, Pollution regulations for farming, energy and manufacturing).

See? “Pushing” and “lifestyles”. Clearly the framing is still centered on the “consumer” (apt word) even when the whole paragraph discusses the role that the rich play.

Yes. The rich helped build a country (or countries) of car-dependence. You can’t vote-with-your-wallet for country-wide road networks. Same with suburbs. And high-priced apartments in areas where the jobs are.

So you get the so-called suburbia lifestyle which is committed by the so-called consumers.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#85

Post by baggy_trough »

avgcorrection wrote: post #84
saintfire wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume by making decisions that push people towards technologies or lifestyles that have massive negative externalities but high profits (e.g. Car culture, unrepairable technology) or lobby for businesses/laws that are net negative for society (e.g. Oil & Gas, Pollution regulations for farming, energy and manufacturing). The private jet attention I think is perfectly valid but is akin to blaming people for th…

> I would assume by making decisions that push people towards technologies or lifestyles that have massive negative externalities but high profits (e.g. Car culture, unrepairable technology) or lobby for businesses/laws that are net negative for society (e.g. Oil & Gas, Pollution regulations for farming, energy and manufacturing). See? “Pushing” and “lifestyles”. Clearly the framing is still centered on the “consumer…

This lifestyle is very much desired by the middle class so I don't think you can blame the rich for it.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#86

Post by groestl »

tristor wrote: post #53
groestl wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for all of them in the same manner though. The richest 1% have a carbon footprint equal to the "poorest" 66%, for example.

Only when looking at things globally, and that's mostly because the vast majority of the world population is exceptionally poor with a matching low standard of living. If you look at things in developed countries, the difference in carbon footprint between rich and poor is not nearly so stark. We are /all/ to blame, and we are /all/ going to suffer for it, so we need to pull our heads out of our asses and stop turnin…

"Only when looking at things globally" is a very interesting thing to say. I'm with you, generally, only that I consider myself part of the "them", and us v them definitely makes sense, given the absurd distribution of resource consumption.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#87

Post by avgcorrection »

baggy_trough wrote: post #85
avgcorrection wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would assume by making decisions that push people towards technologies or lifestyles that have massive negative externalities but high profits (e.g. Car culture, unrepairable technology) or lobby for businesses/laws that are net negative for society (e.g. Oil & Gas, Pollution regulations for farming, energy and manufacturing). See? “Pushing” and “lifestyles”. Clearly the framing is still centered on the “consumer…

This lifestyle is very much desired by the middle class so I don't think you can blame the rich for it.

Commuting 1 1/2 hours a day in rush hour traffic because you live in suburbia in order to work in the city center where the “good jobs” are, the great lifestyle dream.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#88

Post by buttercraft »

andy_ppp wrote: post #3

Anyone else think banning private jets would be generally a much better thing for climate? I find it pretty shocking the rich are allowed to pollute the way they do.

How would this work? A major political figure or celebrity just hangs out at gate A33 waiting for their flight while a mob gathers? Or are only certain people allowed to own private jets? Or are only certain destinations allowed if for "worthy" reasons?

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#89

Post by colpabar »

matsemann wrote: post #59

How many went to the same airports? Like LA, NY etc? Wouldn't it be just as quick and easy for most of these people if they just chartered a bigger plane together?

I don't know from experience, but I'd argue the entire point of private jets is to not have to share anything with anyone. These are a different class of people; they don't think like you or I do.

Re: 525 Private jets departed Las Vegas after the Super Bowl ended

#90

Post by tristor »

matsemann wrote: post #48
tristor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All aviation, altogether, private jets inclusive, is less than 3% of world emissions. Getting people fired up about rich people using private jets is just a distraction from the truth in the same way that paper straws are. The reality is that a small handful of industries generate the majority of pollution, and they have no meaningful regulatory pressure to stop, and that even that mostly pales in comparison to the e…

> The reality is that a small handful of industries generate the majority of pollution No, your argument is the distraction. "Lets do nothing, there's these big guys over here doing worse". And for whom do these industries generate goods and services for?

Please point to where I said "Lets do nothing" /anywhere/ on this issue? I think we need to do numerous things, immediately, and drastically. Distracting ourselves with complaining about the rich is not one of those things, because it /is/ a distraction.
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