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The Matrix Trashfire

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Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#101

Post by nottorp »

raziel2p wrote: post #86
nottorp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Matrix is a communication protocol, and it is not intended to be touched by end-users. So what is "intended to be touched by end users"? I can't figure that out either from the article or the comments here. Assume I can (and actually have) run an irc server, but I haven't set up Matrix for the last 10 years.

The end user is meant to use 1) A client (e.g. Element), and 2) an account created on some server - with the client connecting to that server.

Yep, that's in all caps on the landing page of matrix.org :)

Oh wait, they say "An open network for secure, decentralised communication" instead.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#102

Post by lxgr »

jesprenj wrote: post #64

I really don't like the forced end to end encryption of chats. I do not care that much about the security of my chats to justify the complications of end to end encryption -- verifying devices, constant "reset" prompts that I don't even know what they do, but they seem like they are very destructive. I trust my homeserver, since I host it myself. I do not need end to end encryption. I understand this is an issue of t…

It sounds like you’re happy with XMPP – are you missing anything from Matrix in terms of functionality? If not, why not just stick with XMPP?

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#104

Post by jeroenhd »

crimsoneer wrote: post #26
bowsamic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the official Matrix Mastodon account as well as the "Matrix Director of Program Development" agree with his assessment with the Mastodon account agreeing that it is a "trashfire" makes me sceptical of your suggestion that he was manufacturing these issues.

I mean, Element and Matrix are 2 separate entities, which is kind of the key problem with all these efforts - there have been plenty of posts about how hard it was to join a Mastodon instance, or creating 2 accounts etc. That said, the Element/Element X migration is a mess. But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked.

> The Element/Element X migration is a mess

I think this is a key issue here. Element X is unfinished, but isn't labeled as such. The rest seems to be the result of a buggy, unfinished process, that I don't think exists on the stable client.

It probably also doesn't help that the Element app on iOS has received relatively little attention over the years compared to the Android app, which has had several rewrites. This is probably also why Element X is getting so much focus, as it's the first fresh start for Matrix on Apple's platforms in ages.

Matrix is cool tech, but it's not easy to get into. I'd argue the same for XMPP and other federated services, as their competition has the advantage of having one app managed by one company. Even things like email are confusing to people beyond the very basics; setting up an email client is still something technical support needs to hand-hold people through, no matter how many wizards and step-by-step guides apps may add.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#105

Post by the_third_wave »

rglullis wrote: post #74
the_third_wave wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running an XMPP server is dead simple, just install Prosody and make few simple edits to the configuration and you're set. It hardly takes any resources (32 MB resident on my server) so it can happily live on whatever server you're already using. You will want to add some records to your domain to make it all run smoothly but this is well-documented and even works fine on free DNS providers like Namecheap and Cloudfl…

Ok, now go try to convince your 70 year-old father, who is using iOS, to join you and to use it as your primary means of conversation. I'm not being facetious. Try that, and then try doing it with Matrix/Element. Tell me which one do you end up with.

My father is dead so I don't think I can reach him through XMPP - at least not yet. My 85 yo mother is still alive and yes, she is using Conversations on her Samsung A25 which connects to prosody on my server through which she communicates with all of us. I live in Sweden, she lives in the Netherlands, one of my daughters now studies in the Netherlands as well. We have a 'family list' (i.e. a 'multi-user chat' using the muc extension) where we share photos and anecdotes, sometimes we 'talk' one on one. Everything encrypted through OMEMO so Feind hört NICHT mitt.

I have tried Matrix/Element (self-hosted, of course, like everything else I use) and found it lacking compared to XMPP. It just seems to add needless complexity and does not offer anything worthwhile to compensate for it. I tried some Matrix bridges as well but found these lacking for my purposes.

So the answer to your question is 'I ended up with XMPP'.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#106

Post by jeroenhd »

croes wrote: post #96
master-lincoln wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they tried to use an open source ecosystem by finding an app in a store where devs need to pay to get their apps in. Maybe not the best combination

What do you think non IT people would do?

They wouldn't even know Matrix existed, most likely. They certainly wouldn't have found "Element" on their own.

If they did manage to find Element at all, I would guess that would be through the "try matrix" button on matrix.org, which has an "install Element" button, which then leads to a "download for macOS" button.

More realistically, people would be typing "Matrix" into GPlay or the app store on their phones. The confusing Element/Element X situation would still apply, of course.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#107

Post by hiq »

upofadown wrote: post #77
hiq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you do verify a particular contact's identity it involves comparing a 60 digit decimal number. Why wouldn't you scan the QR code instead of doing that?

You can if both devices are phones and you are physically in the same location. Otherwise, the user is expected to be able to do that. In any case, the user won't have the faintest idea of why they have to do that, so they won't, which in a sense makes this moot.

> Otherwise, the user is expected to be able to do that.

If you're not in the same location, you can long press the code in Signal and "compare to clipboard".

> In any case, the user won't have the faintest idea of why they have to do that, so they won't, which in a sense makes this moot.

I think that's a generic remark about this though, that applies to all messengers AFAIK. Whether that's a 4-digit code and 60.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#108

Post by jeroenhd »

turblety wrote: post #4

We also tried to use it, but frequently, messages will fail to decrypt with no option to retry. Threads is a mess, where messages will show as unread, but you can't actually see what message was unread. Matrix/Element is so close to a great alternative to Slack, but in it's current state it's totally unusable.

> messages will fail to decrypt with no option to retry

In my experience, this is generally resolved automatically in the background. It occurs when the device that's supposed to share the necessary keys isn't online while any of your devices are online, and the moment enough devices are connected again, the messages will pop into your timeline. I'd like a "retry" button, but if the error shows up, manually clicking "retry" wouldn't really do much.

As for it being a Slack competitor: just don't enable encryption and you'll skip over a lot of problems, and come a lot closer to Slack in terms of usability.

The threads UX is a bit weird, but it does show you that there are unread messages hidden in threads through a little indicator by the threads icon. Not the greatest UX, I agree, but I wouldn't call it "unusable".

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#109

Post by LukaD »

I have been using matrix from time to time to chat with some folks who prefer matrix over other chat systems for reasons unknown. Matrix is an absolute trash fire indeed. Every once in a while a chat session with someone just craps itself and my client is unable to decrypt received messages (both element and element x). The issue then usually fixes itself within a couple of days. The bad UX aside, a chat system should at let me reliably send and receive messages. The other issues I had were related to the device verification. The last time I wanted to verify a new phone the verification request simply did not arrive on my other devices. At that point I gave up on matrix.

Re: The Matrix Trashfire

#110

Post by jeroenhd »

apetresc wrote: post #82
master-lincoln wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "they"? Afaik the matrix organization doesn't offer hosted servers

They do indeed: https://element.io/pricing

Matrix and Element are no longer the same entity. Element (New Vector Ltd) is the core behind the Matrix protocol, but they're distinct from the organisation that manages the protocol.

If Matrix does ever take off, this will be an extremely valuable distinction to have.

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