"Ageism" itself is something of a strange concept. Often, what is described as discrimination just seems to be a sane collection of valid trends: - Older people are less willing to work longer hours. - Older people are more aware of their rights as an employee. - Older people may struggle to pick up new skillsets. While it would be bad to find myself unemployable due to these factors, I find it hard to argue that the…
A good way to test if you're ageist is to replace "older" with "black" or "female" and re-read what you wrote (assuming you're not racist or sexist).
Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
51–60 of 86 posts
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#52Employers want cheap labor, and firing older workers who've climbed a ways up the salary/wage ladder and replacing them with new hires is one of the most consistent methods for doing this. The only way to avoid this in the merciless capitalist culture we live in is to get a contract, and of course employers don't want to hand out contracts (unless you're in the executive suite, where everyone gets a contract). Indeed…
I want at will employment for myself and to offer my labor with less termination friction. What you mean by "all employees" is to say, take away the bodily autonomy of the employee to enter mutually consensual arrangement and instead smash them with third party imposition of the union. A great deal for certain union barons, no doubt, who can act as a middleman cartel .
Your race to the bottom can affect others, regardless of wether or not you recognize negative externalities exist.
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
> is to say, take away the bodily autonomy of the employee to enter mutually consensual arrangement No union ever forced someone to accept a job they didn't want. If you had a contract you'd know exactly what the terms are and you'd be entirely free to accept them or not. Also, while I'm sure your default position is "union bad!" and that you're unlikely to change that view, I'd remind you that union employees are no…
What if I consent to performing labor but don't consent to membership in or contract with the democratic system of the union? I don't see how the vote of third party is relevant here. I'm fine if all the other employees want to be in the union and I can undercut them to get a job.
You see how ridiculous that sounds when you don't treat unions as some special form of supplier that doesn't get to negotiate in groups, right?
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#54"Ageism" itself is something of a strange concept. Often, what is described as discrimination just seems to be a sane collection of valid trends: - Older people are less willing to work longer hours. - Older people are more aware of their rights as an employee. - Older people may struggle to pick up new skillsets. While it would be bad to find myself unemployable due to these factors, I find it hard to argue that the…
>Or, how can you know when your stereotype should not actually inform your decision? The social justice crowd provides no answers here: they claim that all stereotypes are as malicious as they are false, and this causes cognitive dissonance when you can tell for sure that some of them are true. Maybe just me, but if you are talking about enacting policies that negatively impact a protected group, I think the burden o…
WRT the "older candidate stereotype," I think that's a bit more of a grey area. Are people in their late 30s and 40s being passed over? There's not really any mental decline at those ages, and I would suspect that the other issues discussed (ie, we can pay a younger candidate less) are the true issue. For sure, mental decline is a real thing, but it varies quite a bit in people. If someone were in their 50s and 60s, I would definitely be alert to the possibility of decline and outdated skillsets, but I would also be attentive to the fact that this is not necessarily the case. Does this make me bigoted? I'm not sure, and I think this is where the grey area lies. It's certainly not unusual for someone in their 60s to have lost a step compared to when they were in their 30s. It's hard for me to imagine that the stereotype should carry _no_ weight in that case.
The ideal would _always_ be to evaluate the person on an individual basis. And from a personal perspective, this is always what I would strive to do. (ie, I was talking about stereotypes in the general sense, not necessarily as they applied to me.) But people take mental shortcuts. Somewhere out there is a case where the 31 year old was the correct hire over the 62 year old, with age being one of the major factors. Is this stereotype overly-relied on? Is it just a stand-in for bad business practices? (ie, we can pay younger people less) I'm sure that's true sometime.
Realistically, people will be making mental shortcuts as they navigate the world. There seems to be no escaping this as a general fact. People often misjudge me, but this is seldom due to any protected group status. The idea behind the "protected groups" is that there has been pernicious, malicious, and egregious negative judgement aimed at these individuals. I personally find that racism or sexism feel qualitatively different than something like ageism.
The real trick, at least in my mind, seems to be to be able to see the individual in front of you rather than the group. It's just that there are two problems with this:
- People are not always very good at seeing the individual rather than the group.
- Seeing the individual rather than the group will not necessarily move representation numbers if stereotypes are based on fact. (as an easy example, there are not very many people in their 60s playing professional football. You don't need to be "bigoted" against older people to arrive at this scenario. You could arrive here with purely objective fitness tests.) And crucially, many people see "incorrect" representation numbers as proof of bigotry.
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
I want at will employment for myself and to offer my labor with less termination friction. What you mean by "all employees" is to say, take away the bodily autonomy of the employee to enter mutually consensual arrangement and instead smash them with third party imposition of the union. A great deal for certain union barons, no doubt, who can act as a middleman cartel .
> is to say, take away the bodily autonomy of the employee to enter mutually consensual arrangement No union ever forced someone to accept a job they didn't want. If you had a contract you'd know exactly what the terms are and you'd be entirely free to accept them or not. Also, while I'm sure your default position is "union bad!" and that you're unlikely to change that view, I'd remind you that union employees are no…
While in theory union employees can change their leadership, in practice, that appears to be extremely difficult, and I don't think you can make a case that the UAW was serving the needs of its members for at least the 20 years preceding Fain.
That's not to say unions are bad, but it's a more complex picture than you're painting.
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#56"Ageism" itself is something of a strange concept. Often, what is described as discrimination just seems to be a sane collection of valid trends: - Older people are less willing to work longer hours. - Older people are more aware of their rights as an employee. - Older people may struggle to pick up new skillsets. While it would be bad to find myself unemployable due to these factors, I find it hard to argue that the…
> Older people are more aware of their rights as an employee. Love that you highlight that as a mark against them. > I'd want to make things _better_ for the older generation, even if that requires unfairness Making things better for the elderly requires being unfair to them. Sure.
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if I consent to performing labor but don't consent to membership in or contract with the democratic system of the union? I don't see how the vote of third party is relevant here. I'm fine if all the other employees want to be in the union and I can undercut them to get a job.
What if my company consents to selling widgets to a new customer, but doesnt consent to the exclusivity clause they have with the another supplier? I dont see how the vote of the third party is relevant here. You see how ridiculous that sounds when you don't treat unions as some special form of supplier that doesn't get to negotiate in groups, right?
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> there just weren't that many 20 year old developers in the 90's. John Carmack was 21 in 1992 when Wolf3D came out, Romero was 25 Tim Sweeney was 21 in 1991 when he released ZZT Ken Silverman was 21 in 1996 when Duke Nukem 3D was released, Todd Replogle was 27 Cliff Bleszinski (19) and Arjan Brusse (22) released Jazz Jackrabbit in 1994 Shawn Hargreaves (sp?) was in his 20's in the 1990's when he created Allegro and…
That's a nice nostalgic list, but it sort of proves the point, doesn't it? There were so few that we remember most of them. Today there are 300k game devs in the US.
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#59"Ageism" itself is something of a strange concept. Often, what is described as discrimination just seems to be a sane collection of valid trends: - Older people are less willing to work longer hours. - Older people are more aware of their rights as an employee. - Older people may struggle to pick up new skillsets. While it would be bad to find myself unemployable due to these factors, I find it hard to argue that the…
A good way to test if you're ageist is to replace "older" with "black" or "female" and re-read what you wrote (assuming you're not racist or sexist).
Re: Industry veterans get candid on ageism in gaming
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> there just weren't that many 20 year old developers in the 90's. John Carmack was 21 in 1992 when Wolf3D came out, Romero was 25 Tim Sweeney was 21 in 1991 when he released ZZT Ken Silverman was 21 in 1996 when Duke Nukem 3D was released, Todd Replogle was 27 Cliff Bleszinski (19) and Arjan Brusse (22) released Jazz Jackrabbit in 1994 Shawn Hargreaves (sp?) was in his 20's in the 1990's when he created Allegro and…
I think they mean there are way more 20-somethings now than there were in the 90s so proportionally over the growth of the industry older developers are naturally going to be underrepresented.
A huge amount of these guys were having games published when they were teens.