Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#71

Post by wkat4242 » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

tremarley wrote: post #58

retskrad wrote: post #48

I believe the assertion suggesting that iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate. The iMessage platform, in itself, does not possess an inherent quality that renders the iPhone more appealing to consumers. On the contrary, it is the iPhone's inherent appeal that enhances the attractiveness of iMessage. The prestige of the iPhone imparts…

‘iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate.’ If you ask many iPhone users why they use an iPhone rather than an Android. They would tell you iMessage first. Many iPhone users won’t even consider an Android, only because of iMessage and no other reason.

Not in Europe. Almost nobody uses iMessage here. It's because the marketshare of Apple is much lower in most EU countries.

I'm glad because I use android also.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#72

Post by wkat4242 » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

kj99 wrote: post #16

bni wrote: post #9

Chat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.

This - they should just mandate RCS, or maybe actually invest in developing a modern European standard and then mandate that. It’s not like they don’t have research universities with CS departments who could be part of a standards body. I don’t mean they should limit alternatives - just that they should require a modern, E2EE standard on all phones, and then we can all just shut up about this.

Or matrix. It's really great and it can interface with most other networks already.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#73

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #56

hwbehrens wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a historical artifact -- by the time that iMessage launched, the US was well into the phase of free, unlimited texting, so there was no barrier to "just texting". Since there was also no barrier (in terms of costs, subscriptions, or installation friction) to using iMessage, it was a drop-in upgrade of the user experience for SMS. In contrast, I still have to pay a fee to send SMS messages to my European…

> In contrast, I still have to pay a fee to send SMS messages to my European relatives Oh wow, yeah that's definitely a big reason people would use what's app instead. That's wild to think about and makes no sense. Any idea why that is? Is it regulatory reasons maybe?

The reason is simply that phone calls across Europe were and are usually not free/included in flat rate plans. Telcos just never found a way to agree on something that makes sense: It's quite common to get unlimited domestic calls, but pay 10-30 cents per minute to a neighboring country.

Nobody (other than businesses) actually pays that; people just ended up using WhatsApp for both calls and texts instead.

So in a way it's the absence of regulation: Data roaming is free within the EU, thanks to a corresponding EU regulation; before that, it wasn't unusual to pay more than EUR 10 per Megabyte (yes, Megabyte, not Gigabyte).

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#74

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:47 PM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #59

retskrad wrote: post #48

I believe the assertion suggesting that iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate. The iMessage platform, in itself, does not possess an inherent quality that renders the iPhone more appealing to consumers. On the contrary, it is the iPhone's inherent appeal that enhances the attractiveness of iMessage. The prestige of the iPhone imparts…

iMessage popularity has little to do with status and everything to do with iPhone users refusing to use other messaging apps. If you want to text an iPhone and you don’t have iMessage chances are you will be forced to use sms which is utterly trash. I’ve been unable to convince my friends to use a messaging app so if I want to text them I pretty much need an iPhone.

The fact that it's impossible to convince any of your friends to use something that works with all phones and not just iPhones arguably does have something to do with status.

In Europe, where less than half of all people (across social strata) use iPhones/iOS, this simply doesn't fly, so there is no "green bubble problem".

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#75

Post by GeekyBear » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:50 PM UTC

hwbehrens wrote: post #35

ghusto wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S.A., people use iMessage by default, because they use text messaging. People don't use texts in Europe (we use WhatsApp and similar, but WhatsApp by a long margin). The reason people still use texts in the U.S.A. is up for debate, and it's something I've thought about for a long time.

I think it's a historical artifact -- by the time that iMessage launched, the US was well into the phase of free, unlimited texting, so there was no barrier to "just texting". Since there was also no barrier (in terms of costs, subscriptions, or installation friction) to using iMessage, it was a drop-in upgrade of the user experience for SMS. In contrast, I still have to pay a fee to send SMS messages to my European…

> by the time that iMessage launched, the US was well into the phase of free, unlimited texting

The iPhone itself launched with unlimited data, but limited text messages.

> keep in mind that AT&T's default rate plans for the iPhone don't include unlimited SMS messages: they include 200 messages per month unless you add an extra-SMS plan. Chatting this way can easily rack up your SMS charges if you're not careful.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/07/iphone-review/8/

When iMessage launched as part of iOS 5, free unlimited SMS was still not a normal thing.

> iMessage is Apple's answer to SMS and MMS—a way to send text and multimedia messages to other iOS device users without relying on a cell carrier. Any kind of text-type message between iOS users can be sent for free in unlimited amounts without chipping away at those overpriced text messages that you pay for through your carrier.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/10/ios-5-reviewed-notif...

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#76

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:51 PM UTC

troupo wrote: post #53

retskrad wrote: post #48

I believe the assertion suggesting that iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate. The iMessage platform, in itself, does not possess an inherent quality that renders the iPhone more appealing to consumers. On the contrary, it is the iPhone's inherent appeal that enhances the attractiveness of iMessage. The prestige of the iPhone imparts…

> This is why the the iPhone is still a status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU wat? iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android (and has for some time), and since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment, it hasn't been a status symbol for a decade or more.

> since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment

This is not (anymore) how people buy their phones in many countries. Even on relatively expensive post-paid plans in some European countries, you don't get a discounted phone anymore: All they offer is an interest-free installment plan.

> iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android

What's an equivalent iPhone to e.g. a Galaxy A54 (~1 year old, EUR ~300-350)?

The iPhone SE (2022) is twice as old and starts at EUR 500.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#77

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:53 PM UTC

bni wrote: post #9

Chat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.

Fortunately the EU is mandating both!

> Many app stores is actually a negative for me

Just don't use them, then! They're not mandatory for consumers.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#78

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:55 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #2

I wonder if this will lead to a reversal on supporting RCS, as I feel it was motivated to keep regulators at bay and now that iMessage is found to be exempt I don’t know if Apple has any incentive to follow through

I think they'll still implement it.

RCS is a bad enough protocol to not present a real alternative to iMessage while allowing Apple to truthfully claim that they're supporting the thing that Google has been pointing to for message interoperability all these years.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#79

Post by lxgr » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 5:56 PM UTC

junaru wrote: post #5

> EU probe found that iMessage falls outside the legislation because it is not widely used by businesses. Proving once more EU loyalties lie not with the people.

If the European Commission were to regulate something that almost nobody in the EU actually uses, Apple probably would have an easy time convincing courts that the EC overstepped their mandate.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#80

Post by bni » Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #77

bni wrote: post #9

Chat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.

Fortunately the EU is mandating both! > Many app stores is actually a negative for me Just don't use them, then! They're not mandatory for consumers.

Until the app I really want require me to install their own crapware store/launcher.

Or even worse, that utility apps that are needed in daily life require their own "store"