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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#181

Post by sokoloff »

itishappy wrote: post #177
sokoloff wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just the 140 characters you quoted contains a confusing billing, IMO. Is it "Full Self Driving" xor is "Minimal driver intervention" required?

Maybe 2 lines down will clear things up? > The currently enabled Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.

If they also changed "Full" to "Limited" (or "Not Full"), it would be cleared up.

"Full Self Driving" and "vehicle is not autonomous" is still confusing to English speakers, IMO.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#182

Post by sokoloff »

itishappy wrote: post #180
throwaway5959 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimal driver intervention isn’t keeping your hands on the wheel at all time and paying attention.

It is if it requires minimal intervention. Intervention and attention are not the same.

But surely "require active driver supervision" is the same as attention, right?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39360101

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#183

Post by itishappy »

cnity wrote: post #86
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't turn on your turn signal and you weave to the left to pass them ...oh nice, the car scares you into remembering that you should always signal passing maneuver with your blinker! Another case where this system goes awry: in light drizzle, cars leave wet trails behind that shine and this system will mistake them for lane markings. I have to turn LTA off in such condition or it would steer me right off th…

There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. There are also a lot of cases where a line ease off to the side in a turn-off that would guide the lane assisted vehicle off the road. Just do a google search for these kinds of cases. This technology is immature and dangerously fails in a lot of cases already.

> There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though.

You are legally required to in the US.

Edit: I'm not entirely confident in this. You are legally required to signal a turn. Lane changes may not meet the definition of a turn. In NYS where I live lane changes are indeed included.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#184

Post by tullianus »

soco wrote: post #152
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait wait. You are passing cyclists. Blinking serves two purposes: you are letting them know that you have noticed them (so they know you're not just going to plow right through them) and you are letting them know you are going to pass them (so they don't do stupid shit like decide to turn left at exactly this moment). If a car behind me, in the same lane, was passing me without blinking, I would highly suspect a dru…

I'm not sure how can a cyclist see your blinker - you are behind them when starting to overtake and looking back is not something cyclists do much (or more than once)...

Helmet-mounted rearview mirror. Looks like the little mirror they use at the dentist's office.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#185

Post by avgDev »

bluGill wrote: post #171
themaninthedark wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer, it boggles my mind how much people trust software in general. Toyota was put under a microscope after the Prius crashes....do you think anything has changed since? Do you think the software running the cars has gotten any better? VW cheated on emissions, they payed civil and criminal fines and a couple engineers got charged. No one from managment....Since then, it has come out that almost everyone was…

I trust humans even less than software. At least software can be debugged over time and is consistent so if we get it working...

I would imagine debugging something like FSD might be difficult. Not sure what kind of data they store, but no situation might be the same.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#186

Post by kramerger »

How can this be the first death?

Tesla is involved in 700+ court cases covering multiple deaths [1]. Tesla drivers are involved in more accidents for some reason [2]. I suspect the first death happened far before this.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-a...

[2] https://www.lendingtree.com/insurance/brand-incidents-study/

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#187

Post by brewdad »

kristjansson wrote: post #76
WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

> If you don't turn on your turn signal ... the car will literally steer back This kills me about BMW's lane-keep system. It doesn't just lane-keep in the absence of input, it actively fights driver input that would take it over the lane lines.

To be fair, that is the point of lane-keep assist. To keep an inattentive driver from drifting out of their lane. Without any input to the contrary, it should assume a car leaving its lane is unintentional and try to correct it. That what it is designed to do.

My Volvo has an early version of lane-keep assist (2017 model first introduced in 2015). It will fight me when it thinks I'm out of a lane. Fortunately, it doesn't take much input force to override it. It is still strong enough initially that if I were driving without holding the steering wheel appropriately it would cause a problem. Also, I must remember to turn it off if there is any snow or ice on the road surface as that tends to put the car in "kill me mode".

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#188

Post by itishappy »

sokoloff wrote: post #182
itishappy wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if it requires minimal intervention. Intervention and attention are not the same.

But surely "require active driver supervision" is the same as attention, right? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39360101

Yes, they claim to require full attention and minimal intervention.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#190

Post by lotsofpulp »

itishappy wrote: post #177
sokoloff wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just the 140 characters you quoted contains a confusing billing, IMO. Is it "Full Self Driving" xor is "Minimal driver intervention" required?

Maybe 2 lines down will clear things up? > The currently enabled Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.

Using the correct words would not require another 2 lines to clear things up.

The only reason to label it incorrectly is to falsely advertise.

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