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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#151

Post by cchance »

kristjansson wrote: post #76
WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

> If you don't turn on your turn signal ... the car will literally steer back This kills me about BMW's lane-keep system. It doesn't just lane-keep in the absence of input, it actively fights driver input that would take it over the lane lines.

Ya no tesla disables by tapping break at all, or even twitching the steering wheel,

If this was in fact a FSD crash, the driver didn't try to stop it in any way.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#152

Post by soco »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #98
cnity wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. There are also a lot of cases where a line ease off to the side in a turn-off that would guide the lane assisted vehicle off the road. Just do a google search for these kinds of cases. This technology is immature and dangerously fails in a lot of cases already.

Wait wait. You are passing cyclists. Blinking serves two purposes: you are letting them know that you have noticed them (so they know you're not just going to plow right through them) and you are letting them know you are going to pass them (so they don't do stupid shit like decide to turn left at exactly this moment). If a car behind me, in the same lane, was passing me without blinking, I would highly suspect a dru…

I'm not sure how can a cyclist see your blinker - you are behind them when starting to overtake and looking back is not something cyclists do much (or more than once)...

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#153

Post by izzydata »

throw7 wrote: post #131

I won't use self driving until legal liability is on the manufacturer. And self driving to me means I can tell the car to come pick me up at the airport. I'm not optimistic that will happen in my lifetime.

I don't think it will happen ever and I don't even think it should happen ever. The first step in making this possible would probably be standardization of all road infrastructure everywhere. That will never happen so instead I think we should abandon our car centric society and start building trains.

Something on a track is way easier to automate.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#154

Post by cchance »

tshaddox wrote: post #143
ec109685 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas don’t require much force at all to disengage.

I have a 2020 Subaru that requires very little force to move the steering wheel when lane centering is engaged. My Tesla Model 3 requires a bit more force, but it's still quite light.

I mean barely any, but also you can tap break, or hit the stalk, like theirs a billion ways to disable, a crash if FSD is enabled actually, was because the driver didn't even try to stop it.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#155

Post by ericd »

fisherjeff wrote: post #45
bkandel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in a Tesla Uber, I found watching the front screen that shows where cars are around you frightening. Cars would frequently move around and change position unexpectedly and in a way that had nothing to do with actual car movements, lane markings would be totally off, etc. If that screen is at all representative of what FSD "thinks" is going on, I'm not at all surprised that there are lots of crashes when re…

YES. Thank you. I rode in a Model Y last year and just could not believe the mistakes it was making. Disappearing and reappearing cars; the semi in front of us was apparently straddling the lane line for a few miles; somehow an early-2000s Dodge Ram was classified as a small sedan – the list goes on, and this was only a ~10-minute ride. I would be absolutely mortified if a product of mine ended up in front of a custo…

That’s not the perception for FSD, btw, that’s the output of a much older generation model that you’re seeing. But yeah, it’s pretty bad.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#156

Post by fortran77 »

I have FSD in my Tesla's (an "S" from 2018 and a 2023 "Plaid"). I don't have any confidence in it. After the initial fun of playing with it wore off, I've never used it.

I do like the smart cruise control where it will maintain speed based on the speed of the car in front of me, and the features to nudge me back in lane if I drift, etc, but not when the car drives for me.

I'm wondering if there are cut corners in the budget "3" that make it even worse...

That being said, the driver was drunk, and I have little sympathy for drunk drivers. I'm grateful he didn't kill anyone else on the road.

From the article:

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. Still, an investigation by the Colorado State Patrol went beyond drunken driving, seeking to understand what role the Tesla software may have played in the crash.

Obviously, any legal action the family wants to take against Tesla will be an uphill battle because juries aren't sympathetic to drunk drivers, either.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#157

Post by metabagel »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #116
ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

6. Refuse to turn over crash data you have to investigators 7. Somehow manage to set conditions that prohibit the government from disclosing the data you do eventually provide Edit: forgot one! 8. Decide that RADAR sensors are too expensive, and stop using them. But because you don't want owners, the public, press, or regulators to see how much worse the stereo camera systems perform compared to combined radar and an…

Well, I mean I think it’s expensive to try to maintain two systems - one with LIDAR and the other without.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#158

Post by endtime »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #116
ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

6. Refuse to turn over crash data you have to investigators 7. Somehow manage to set conditions that prohibit the government from disclosing the data you do eventually provide Edit: forgot one! 8. Decide that RADAR sensors are too expensive, and stop using them. But because you don't want owners, the public, press, or regulators to see how much worse the stereo camera systems perform compared to combined radar and an…

9. And never include LIDAR in the first place...

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#159

Post by torartc »

cptcobalt wrote: post #81

This is a sensationalized hit piece against Tesla Autopilot. It is definitely unfortunate the drunk employee operating the car was involved in a crash, that at least from the wp reporting sounds avoidable—Autopilot active or not. Any death is unfortunate, and an opportunity to improve vehicle safety. Tesla's Q4 2023 stats should speak for themselves: > In the 4th quarter, we recorded one crash for every 5.39 million…

It's almost like the term Full Self Driving is a complete lie.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#160

Post by xenadu02 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #42
ricardobeat wrote: post #11

> In 2022, Tesla recalled more than 50,000 vehicles amid concerns that Full Self-Driving caused the car to roll through stop signs without coming to a full halt. Not exactly relevant, but I remember this particular instance - the slow rolling through stop signs was an intentional feature to mimic human behaviour (and avoid surprising other drivers) but was deemed illegal because it goes against a strict interpretatio…

>was an intentional feature to mimic human behaviour Which is nonsense. Most of the world is not shitty California with drivers who think they are the most important person on the planet who can't even stop for a second at a literal stop sign. Rolling through stop signs is against the law, is dangerous, and should never have been on any sort of feature roadmap anywhere.

Haha says someone who has never driven in San Francisco's Sunset district. Stop signs at every intersection... for all 40+ avenues. 90% of the time there are no other cars even remotely close to the intersection. Not even SF traffic cops come to a full stop at each one.

The situation is not ideal. I wish we had a sign that meant "full stop if another vehicle is approaching the intersection, otherwise rolling stop is fine". Yield doesn't quite cover it.

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