I won't use self driving until legal liability is on the manufacturer. And self driving to me means I can tell the car to come pick me up at the airport. I'm not optimistic that will happen in my lifetime.
Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
131–140 of 315 posts
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#132I have the opinion that if a self driving car is not able to prevent driving into a tree or any other static object, it should not be on the road. It doesn't matter to me if the driver was drunk. Maybe he was drunk because he depended on autopilot to get home. Maybe he would have not had an accident if he drove home himself. We don't know. All I know is drunk driving is dumb and autopilot sucks ass.
Human drivers drive into trees and static objects, and I object to the idea that we need self-driving cars to have superhuman driving abilities for them to be worth using.
Not driving into trees is a superhuman driving ability? That means I have superhuman driving ability!
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
>evidence suggests that the bar is very low There is no real evidence (not biased or cherry picked) that replacing all drivers with Tesla's would actually be better/ I am aware of Tesla's numbers but those are invalid statistics , not comparing apples to apples. We would need something like how many miles does a car drive before a driver takes over, not comparing number of accidents since those are comparing human vs…
Why is it invalid to compare which of human vs. computer+human will save more lives?
It is inherently cherry picked data, because the computer can disengage at any moment, but the human cannot.
For example: all of the worst driving conditions are inherently in the 'human drivers' bucket because the computer won't engage in those situations.
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#134While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…
This all feels very MCAS to me.
No? MCAS was necessary because Boeing made the plane aerodynamically unstable.
They did so because of pressure to compete against superior Airbus offerings, and because a new airframe (the proper solution) would have been a huge undertaking and airlines wouldn't like it because they'd have to get pilots certified on the new airframe.
Boeing then did not implement sufficient redundancy in the system, proper warning annunciators, training, documentation, etc. Many pilots had no idea the system existed.
There are similarities, however. A large part of the reason Tesla has so many problems is because Musk decreed that radar was too expensive and discontinued installing them, forcing the system to rely on stereo camera vision.
Even worse: Tesla disabled the radar systems in older cars because they didn't want the older cars to be more capable - it would be a very inconvenient way for the public, press, and regulators to see how deficient the camera-only approach was.
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#135One thing I hate about Musk saying things like "They have fewer accidents than people" is that it is only able to be engaged in the easiest of scenarios. So per mile, self driving on the easiest roads barely has less accidents than a human in adverse conditions? That doesn't seem to actually be better than people yet.
It's important for metrics to be measurable. Throwing in a bunch of subjective criteria like how tricky a road is will only make the analysis less meaningful. Yes, it's important to understand the limitations of the metrics, but the existence of limitations doesn't mean that the metrics should be thrown out entirely.
Measuring metrics that are easy to measure doesn't help if the metric doesn't mean anything.
Comparing collision rates between human drivers in all conditions and Tesla automation in conditions where it allows activation and is activated is simply not a usable comparison.
Certainly, there's not an easy way to measure the collision rate for all humans all cars in only the conditions where Tesla automation can be activated, and that makes it hard to find a metric we can use, but that doesn't mean we have to accept an unusable metric that's easy to measure.
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Autopilot will refuse to engage in a wide variety of situations. It will only engage in the easiest, safest scenarios. Do you have any proof of this? I can enable it on a dirt road if there are visible enough edges of the road. But yes, obviously, they're being a bit misleading by aggregating all miles together. In aggregate, it is overall safer on the highway, and I don't think you can argue in good faith that the…
Will you accept Tesla's word for it? https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-101D1BF... > In addition, these features may not work as intended when: The road has sharp curves or significant changes in elevation.; Road signs and signals are unclear, ambiguous, or poorly maintained.; Visibility is poor (due to heavy rain, snow, hail, etc. or poorly lit roadways at night); You are driving in a tunnel or nex…
This is basically my point at the bottom of my original post. It isn't supposed to be used in those scenarios. That doesn't change the reality that my car's Autopilot can and does work on dirt roads, when the sun is directly in the middle of its FOV, on the curvy suburban roads of Georgia, in heavy rain, etc.
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your contention is that having FSD the car makes accidents more likely because people will rely on it when they shouldn't be driving at all. So... does it? The statistics don't seem to bear that out. This is the first significant accident of that type we've seen, where there have been multiple "driver passed out and the car stopped on the road" incidents. Seems like the truth is the opposite, no? Tesla didn't invent…
We don't have apples-to-apples data in the public.
That's not a license to believe whatever anecdotes you want, though. I'm just saying that if anecdotes are sufficient, autopilot wins the argument. If they're not, we need data and shouldn't be freaking out over the one drunk driving incident in the linked article.
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#138Whether it is "half-baked", or not: how many driving hours passed before the first fatality?
How do they compare to human driving hours per fatality?
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure what “0.26” exactly means, but if it’s what I interpret to be that’s about one beer for a typical male adult. It’s not nothing but it’s not a lot either.
The US typically uses "percent" when referring to blood alcohol levels while many other countries use "per mille", sometimes leading to confusion around the rules. When somebody mentions Sweden's "zero point two" limit, it's actually incredibly strict, not incredibly lenient!
Ah yes thanks. That’s it! So in Europe it’s 2.6, which is A LOT!!
Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure what “0.26” exactly means, but if it’s what I interpret to be that’s about one beer for a typical male adult. It’s not nothing but it’s not a lot either.
The US typically uses "percent" when referring to blood alcohol levels while many other countries use "per mille", sometimes leading to confusion around the rules. When somebody mentions Sweden's "zero point two" limit, it's actually incredibly strict, not incredibly lenient!
Of course they do... but also the first time I hear that, didn't know.