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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

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Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#111

Post by cnity »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #98
cnity wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of cases where you pass a line without indicating though. There are also a lot of cases where a line ease off to the side in a turn-off that would guide the lane assisted vehicle off the road. Just do a google search for these kinds of cases. This technology is immature and dangerously fails in a lot of cases already.

Wait wait. You are passing cyclists. Blinking serves two purposes: you are letting them know that you have noticed them (so they know you're not just going to plow right through them) and you are letting them know you are going to pass them (so they don't do stupid shit like decide to turn left at exactly this moment). If a car behind me, in the same lane, was passing me without blinking, I would highly suspect a dru…

My comment was a bit misleading, sorry. I do indicate when passing cyclists. I read your comment as suggesting that the assumption lane assist makes is OK because one should always indicate when crossing a lane marking (which is not always the case).

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#112

Post by freejazz »

loceng wrote: post #10
ra7 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two were idiots, but this highlights the dangers of L2 driver assistance systems (misleadingly marketed as "Full Self Driving") that requires driver attention at all times to prevent accidents. It gives you a false sense of security and there's no guarantee you'll take over in time to prevent an accident. If you give dumb toys to people, they will use it in dumb ways. This is why Waymo/Google abandoned their dr…

Sorry but everything after "the driver who's responsible for their decisions was drunk" is moot. But otherwise, yes, your statement otherwise about giving "toys" to "dumb" people stands no matter the technology. And knives can be used to cut steak or stab people.

That's not how proximate cause works in a negligence case.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#113

Post by Kerbonut »

ceejayoz wrote: post #92
cptcobalt wrote: post #81

This is a sensationalized hit piece against Tesla Autopilot. It is definitely unfortunate the drunk employee operating the car was involved in a crash, that at least from the wp reporting sounds avoidable—Autopilot active or not. Any death is unfortunate, and an opportunity to improve vehicle safety. Tesla's Q4 2023 stats should speak for themselves: > In the 4th quarter, we recorded one crash for every 5.39 million…

Tesla continues to misleadingly use this comparison, and somehow people continue to fall for it. Autopilot will refuse to engage in a wide variety of situations . It will only engage in the easiest, safest scenarios. You cannot compare those miles against all miles driven by human drivers, which include narrow winding mountain passes, two inches of snowy slush, etc. Even the 1M non-autopilot comparison; you're compar…

Normalizing the data to make a direct comparison is a hard problem. Do you know of any research done to try to do that?

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#114

Post by jonnycat »

baxtr wrote: post #44
redserk wrote: post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

I’m not sure what “0.26” exactly means, but if it’s what I interpret to be that’s about one beer for a typical male adult. It’s not nothing but it’s not a lot either.

The US typically uses "percent" when referring to blood alcohol levels while many other countries use "per mille", sometimes leading to confusion around the rules. When somebody mentions Sweden's "zero point two" limit, it's actually incredibly strict, not incredibly lenient!

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#115

Post by Towaway69 »

staunton wrote: post #106
basisword wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be illegal for them to call it full self drive. It's 100% false advertising not to mention the 'danger' that people will assume it is what it says it is.

It probably is illegal...

... and the fines have been factored into the bottom line.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#116

Post by KennyBlanken »

ra7 wrote: post #48

As I said in another comment, these two were idiots driving drunk. Let's get that out of the way. The bigger issue here is how this deniability is all too convenient for Tesla. The process goes like this: 1. Ship a clearly half baked system called "Full Self Driving". 2. Require driver's hands on the wheel at all times. 3. Be extremely non-transparent about your system's safety. Tesla's crash reports in the public NH…

6. Refuse to turn over crash data you have to investigators

7. Somehow manage to set conditions that prohibit the government from disclosing the data you do eventually provide

Edit: forgot one!

8. Decide that RADAR sensors are too expensive, and stop using them. But because you don't want owners, the public, press, or regulators to see how much worse the stereo camera systems perform compared to combined radar and and camera, disable the RADAR in all the older cars

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#117

Post by azinman2 »

ec109685 wrote: post #74
WirelessGigabit wrote: post #47

While I don't know how good Tesla's self-driving is, I do have experience with a limited keep-your-lane system in a BMW. The one that actually steers. It requires a lot of force to override it. And remember, it requires you to keep the hands on the wheel. But you are not expecting to have to fight it, so there are some delays there. Then you're fighting a system that you don't know how much force it takes to override…

Teslas don’t require much force at all to disengage.

I don’t know what BMW is like but it requires more force than I think is safe.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#118

Post by itsoktocry »

redserk wrote: post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

>The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

In every single discussion with Tesla fans re: FSD, we hear that "FSD is safer NOW than human drivers", but every time there's an accident it's the driver's fault.

At what point are Tesla accountable for the mixed messaging around this product?

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#119

Post by sokoloff »

ricardobeat wrote: post #65
mrguyorama wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>was an intentional feature to mimic human behaviour Which is nonsense. Most of the world is not shitty California with drivers who think they are the most important person on the planet who can't even stop for a second at a literal stop sign. Rolling through stop signs is against the law, is dangerous, and should never have been on any sort of feature roadmap anywhere.

Not nonsense at all in my experience. I come from Brazil, and outside city centers sometimes you absolutely risk being rear-ended if you decide to come to a full stop at a stop sign. You’re expected to slowly roll past it, and only stop if there is oncoming traffic.

Decades ago, I failed my initial driving test for doing a California roll through a stop sign.

It's done so commonly that I just tested like I'd practiced. (It's entirely correct for me to have failed, of course.)

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#120

Post by lern_too_spel »

jvanderbot wrote: post #19
mdorazio wrote: post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

As a robotics person outside this space, it's not amazing that the shift to L4 as a goal has not been clearly grok'd by the public. After years of rhetoric, most people still believe that cars will be fully autonomous because they just don't understand the limitations. It's also quite amazing to me we, the so called smart ones, ever believed level 5 was happening but those were the good old days, huh.

L4 is all that's needed for a taxi service, and that's where all the money is. Tesla sold cars with "FSD" to customers living anywhere, so they have to solve L5, and they have to do it with fewer sensors and less compute. Of course it's not going to work. We're all just waiting for the other shoe to drop for the inevitable lawsuits.
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