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Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

washingtonpost.com

31–40 of 315 posts

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#31
post #8
post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

These two were idiots, but this highlights the dangers of L2 driver assistance systems (misleadingly marketed as "Full Self Driving") that requires driver attention at all times to prevent accidents. It gives you a false sense of security and there's no guarantee you'll take over in time to prevent an accident. If you give dumb toys to people, they will use it in dumb ways. This is why Waymo/Google abandoned their dr…

I totally agree with what you say. Certainly “Full Self Driving” should be illegal marketing for level 2 autonomy.

That said, cars are dumb toys to give people. Certainly access to cars is dangerous for people that are going to use them while drunk. “Sense of security” or not, why were these guys in control of a vehicle?

While autonomous vehicles are not ready, this event just cements the need for them in my mind. I expect that they have already saved more lives than they have cost. Some continue to insist that replacing human drivers is a high bar. In edge cases and for the best drivers, it is. Collectively though, evidence suggests that the bar is very low and that we have already surpassed it.

At this point, it is more of a “fairness” or “control” issue who gets hurt by autonomy than it is aggregate safety by the numbers. In this case, thankfully, it sounds like it was fair.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#32
post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

>seems less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

if the car is truly autonomous, then no, its failure of a life critical system

if the car is not autonomous, then calling it "Full Self Driving" is a wilful misrepresentation of it's capability. To a normal person (no ignore the driver's employment history) full self drive, means that, it drives it's self, safely. You and I know that's not the case. However the vast majority of people out there don't know it.

Everyone is rightly chewing Boeing out for lax safety standards, but that door didn't kill anyone. If you are going to be annoyed at Boeing, then you need to be absolutely fucked off at tesla.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#33
post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

As a robotics person outside this space, it's not amazing that the shift to L4 as a goal has not been clearly grok'd by the public. After years of rhetoric, most people still believe that cars will be fully autonomous because they just don't understand the limitations. It's also quite amazing to me we, the so called smart ones, ever believed level 5 was happening but those were the good old days, huh.

It's hard to impossible for me to know how difficult level 5 driving even is since we don't have any machine that can do it. Trying to achieve it has been a good example of turtles all the way down.

At the same time I feel like people are ignoring how well self-driving works RIGHT NOW, the rate of accidents is still less than with human drivers. So I'm still pretty optimistic.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#34
post #24
post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

It's a supervised system as deployed. How much "blind faith" are you really seeing vs. what you think you're interpreting. None of us are taking naps in the cars. The system does continue to make mistakes, though virtually always of the "too conservative" variety. But it's also the most fun I've had in a vehicle in my whole life and an absolutely sale-maker for me personally. I simply won't buy a vehicle from another…

> So... I guess I repeat the question: where are you seeing "Tesla fans" using FSD unsupervised?

One of the biggest Tesla influencers using FSD without his hands on the wheel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFW4e0Pkz_Y

This is explicitly disallowed by FSD terms and conditions. He does this all the time.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#35
post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

[flagged]

What does FSD stand for?

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#36
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two were idiots, but this highlights the dangers of L2 driver assistance systems (misleadingly marketed as "Full Self Driving") that requires driver attention at all times to prevent accidents. It gives you a false sense of security and there's no guarantee you'll take over in time to prevent an accident. If you give dumb toys to people, they will use it in dumb ways. This is why Waymo/Google abandoned their dr…

I totally agree with what you say. Certainly “Full Self Driving” should be illegal marketing for level 2 autonomy. That said, cars are dumb toys to give people. Certainly access to cars is dangerous for people that are going to use them while drunk. “Sense of security” or not, why were these guys in control of a vehicle? While autonomous vehicles are not ready, this event just cements the need for them in my mind. I…

> I totally agree with what you say. Certainly “Full Self Driving” should be illegal marketing for level 2 autonomy.

The driver was literally a Tesla Inc. employee. Do you really think that they were fooled by marketing into believing the system was more capable than it was? No, they were just drunk and made a terrible decision.

I mean, I'm tempted to just agree. Let's call it something else. Will that stop these ridiculous arguments? I really doubt it.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#37
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two were idiots, but this highlights the dangers of L2 driver assistance systems (misleadingly marketed as "Full Self Driving") that requires driver attention at all times to prevent accidents. It gives you a false sense of security and there's no guarantee you'll take over in time to prevent an accident. If you give dumb toys to people, they will use it in dumb ways. This is why Waymo/Google abandoned their dr…

It's not just Self Driving but Full Self Driving! Because today, self driving means not actually self driving at all.

I self drive every time I get behind the wheel. Who else is going to do it? Maybe they should call it "Someone else Driving" but that would just be Uber/Lyft.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#38
post #6

As someone who works in the autonomous driving space, it is absolutely mind boggling to me how much blind faith Tesla fans put into FSD. When you compare it to any true L4 system it’s not even close and very unlikely to get close any time soon.

Just sold my Model S and bought a Lyriq and am incredibly surprised at how much better Super Cruise is than FSD. It drives just like a human, incredibly smooth.

Of course, it won't work on regular streets - just freeways, but maybe that's for the best, considering how inconsistent FSD is.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#39

I have the opinion that if a self driving car is not able to prevent driving into a tree or any other static object, it should not be on the road. It doesn't matter to me if the driver was drunk. Maybe he was drunk because he depended on autopilot to get home. Maybe he would have not had an accident if he drove home himself. We don't know. All I know is drunk driving is dumb and autopilot sucks ass.

Human drivers drive into trees and static objects, and I object to the idea that we need self-driving cars to have superhuman driving abilities for them to be worth using.

Re: Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first 'Full Self-Driving' fatality

#40
post #3

> Von Ohain and Rossiter had been drinking, and an autopsy found that von Ohain died with a blood alcohol level of 0.26 — more than three times the legal limit — a level of intoxication that would have hampered his ability to maintain control of the car, experts said. The details make this seem less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue.

>seems less of an autonomous driving issue and more of an incredibly irresponsible operation issue. if the car is truly autonomous, then no, its failure of a life critical system if the car is not autonomous, then calling it "Full Self Driving" is a wilful misrepresentation of it's capability. To a normal person (no ignore the driver's employment history) full self drive, means that, it drives it's self, safely. You…

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