Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 346 posts

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#261

Post by turquoisevar »

LtWorf wrote: post #200
frizlab wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am too. I’m tired of the virulent minority making like they’re the majority (on this subject or others)

Ask the users: "Would you rather pay less or more?"… see where the majority stands :D

Users obviously would like to pay less. But you imply that lower commissions somehow trickle down to users.

I happily admit that I pocketed the 15% discount I got once the Small Business Program launched and so did all of my peers. I can’t think of a single example where a developer in the SBP lowered their prices.

As such, I don’t see what users have to do with it. Not that it’d matter, the topic is developers and how content they are.

The big developers don’t seem to care about the commission either, not really anyways. Is a symbol for something else to them.

Netflix has had access to 15% for years now via the Apple Video Partner Program[0] and they’ve never even entertained the option because they’d rather take the potential loss in sales than to play nice with the TV app on Apple TV.

0: https://developer.apple.com/programs/video-partner/

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#262

Post by turquoisevar »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #71

This is a rather misleading headline. The vast majority of developers are not in “open revolt” – just a handful of developers are making a lot of noise about it, while continuing to ship software (ie, not in revolt at all). Further, those developers making great noise are often close to “platform” designation themselves, making their appeal less righteous than a superficial reading might have you believe. It’s a stru…

> Most developers are pleased with the current paradigm. I am.

I’m also a developer that is very happy and who’s sick and tired of corporate devs acting like they speak for me, followed by outlets who echo everything they say like it’s gospel.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#263

Post by lxgr »

withinboredom wrote: post #235
turtlebits wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You buy a device knowing it's ecosystem is controlled by the manufacturer. When I buy a PS5, I understand that Sony 100% controls what games are offered on it.

My phone. Is uh, my phone. I’m not my phone’s property. What crack are you smoking? For a PS5, it’s quite a bit different. We all can agree that piracy got out of control back in the 90’s/00’s. This is the price we pay to have games. Our phones never had this problem.

I don’t think it’s that different really. Preventing piracy can be done using DRM, which can live side by side with unsigned code on the same device (as evidenced by eg Android running Widevine L1).

Somebody noted well in another thread that the main difference is that game consoles are often sold at or below cost, so a "software monopoly" on a given console platform can be seen as a way of "paying back the advance" on the console to the manufacturer/platform.

I don't think anybody would seriously argue that iPhones are a loss leader.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#264

Post by Nevermark »

Assuming the backlash carries through further EU responses (which regardless of opinions on what it should do, will need to do if it wants to remain credible on this issue):

1. Apple knows this. It knows it will be asked to do more.

2. In the short term, they will drag their feet to maintain benefits of the status quo as long as possible.

3. But more importantly longer term, they expect the final result to be more in their favor as a result of the foot dragging.

Negotiating 101. Fight a losing battle hard. So your adversary can claim and perceive eventual victory, with much less to show for it than if you had simply complied.

Also to protect other areas from pushback, always be difficult. Don’t encourage further incursions.

And there is always the chance your adversary will succumb or be distracted in the meantime.

Any fine would have to be at least tens of billions of dollars to hurt Apple. In a few years, at least $100 billion. Not a likely first or second response.

So for now, Apple hasn’t lost anything. Their crafted half hearted “compliance” helps them more than it hurts them.

Nobody at Apple is losing any sleep.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#265

Post by theshrike79 »

Digit-Al wrote: post #93
theshrike79 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think people won't blame Apple when Little Timmy spends $10k on diamonds on a mobile game they got from an alternate store and Apple won't refund it because, you know, not their store?

But, for little Timmy to buy diamonds in a mobile game from an alternate store he would have to install the alternate store then "borrow" his parent's credit card to register with the new store. If "little" Timmy is pulling those sort of shenanigans then I suggest his parents have bigger problems and they probably won't blame Apple at all.

The "Alternate store" might just be Epic's own store, the one with Fortnite. A big trustworthy name in the parents' eyes.

Then the parents insert their CC info so Timmy can get the latest Disney skin for his game.

And of course the store doesn't have any safeguards or parental controls, they're on the iOS side. In the official store.

Can you seriously, hand on heart, tell me that people will in this case blame Epic for their crappy store and not Apple?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#266

Post by turquoisevar »

orev wrote: post #5
cdme wrote: post #3

Apple's seeking to comply with the letter, rather than the spirit, of the law in order to maintain their ability to extract rents from the App Store. It's user-hostile (particularly given that they've now hobbled PWAs) but not surprising. Their behavior won't change without additional regulatory action.

In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. On one hand it seems like Apple is trying to take a US style approach, but on the other they must have European lawyers on staff explaining how that won’t work. One might conclude that it’s a calculated risk, or a stalling tact…

You’ve got it backwards.

The US allows for a lot of interpretation on intent and context by judges. In the EU this is far more restricted and the black letter law is way more important.

That said, in the EU there’s more of a tradition in civil law cases to deviate from the law and agreements for “the sake of equity” (i.e., civil law judges love to split the baby and have everyone be a little unhappy).

This is of course not civil law but administrative law, which in the US isn’t really a thing. In the US non-criminal cases involving the government are adjudicated according to civil law v (for the most part).

Source: before getting into software engineering I practiced law in the EU, during my last years in law school I focused on comparative law, now living in the US and married to a lawyer who went to law school in the US Or you know, just trust me bro, because I’m just a stranger in the internet.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#267

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

anfilt wrote: post #170

A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware. At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with i…

"Consider this scenario: you purchase a new iPhone with the intention of no even using iOS and installing something like Linux."

Instead of a hardware compatibility list, it's a software compatibility list and every entry must be Apple-approved.

How did they ever pull this off. No one ever questioned it.

For decades, I have wanted option to remove the Apple OS and use non-Apple operating system. Seemed like no one else ever wanted to do that. People have been content to multi-boot, leaving the Apple OS installed.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#268

Post by chrisjj »

wyattjoh wrote: post #250
chrisjj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the guaranteed safe environment that Apple provides. Guaranteed by whom? Not Apple, for sure.

Absolutely by Apple. Any subscription or charge against the users account all collects to the same place where it's always the User that has absolute control over their subscriptions. Want to cancel it? Easy, one place, one tap, done.

Yoy did say ecosytem/environment and there's a lot more to that than just subscriptions.

E.g. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-10781343/M...

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#269

Post by smoldesu »

retskrad wrote: post #37

We can talk about the morality of Apple’s App Store tax on developers all day but Apple is not a monopoly and they have all the right in the world to tax developers. We have to realize that Apple has most of the worlds middle class and rich people using iPhones. Apple can use this this advantage how ever they like as long it’s not breaking any laws. If developers are mad about it then they need to band together like…

> but Apple is not a monopoly and they have all the right in the world to tax developers.

1. "Apple" is a lot of things, and depending on how you define it (eg. internal app market, API provider, browser developer, etc.) they are absolutely a monopoly. It's not appropriate to say Apple isn't a monopoly because they do have monopoly power, pertinent to multiple markets.

2. Apple is owed nothing if they abuse monopoly power. Bell had "all the right in the world" to charge customers for rewiring their telephone, but it was also foundational in the case to break them up later. All the most famous American monopolies were also in denial up to the bitter end. Microsoft got away lucky, not also getting broken-up.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#270

Post by chrisjj »

bonton89 wrote: post #34
wyattjoh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The allure of the Apple ecosystem is the whole "it just works". I would absolutely want to be warned (and have less technically minded family members warned) when they are being sent to some third-party payment system when they're used to the guaranteed safe environment that Apple provides.

Doesn't Apple have a really simple Apple run payment portal where you can easily stop monthly charges? I don't even use Apple products myself but I'd want to be warned if I was about to lose that advantage, your average company are absolutely scum about monthly charges and cancellations.

Tbat's like wanting one high street shop to warn you upon a visit to another.
Post reply on HN