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Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

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Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#281

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

worewood wrote: post #106
fuhrtf wrote: post #34

Cloudflare is like Google early days. They could spend resources on things for the good of the all. In this case they’re spending millions when they could have settled for much cheaper. Thanks Cloudflare.

I think this is just basic game theory. If they settled the trolls would just keep coming. If they fight the patent extortion then trolls are going to think twice before suing them, for fear of losing .

The company that I used to work for, had a vast patent portfolio.

They were also getting sued regularly, by patent trolls.

They had really good lawyers, and had a basic policy, to never settle with trolls. It wasn't altruistic. They just didn't want to get bullied. I'm sure that they also went after other companies, and there was probably a lot of wheeling and dealing. That's one of the reasons that corporations like to hoard patents.

They used to require their engineers to file a couple of patents a year. I am on a patent. I got a dollar for it.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#282

Post by beepbooptheory »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #276
dustingetz wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the software ip case, they can invest in building competitive products in an open market. If your software IP is a secret then don’t publish!

So, for example, the secret sauce that makes the CPLEX and Gurobi solvers tens or hundreds of times faster than open source equivalents should simply be released to the public, leading to the immediate loss of 90% of those products' competitive advantage? You don't see how such a policy would spur terror among large, profitable companies with trade secrets, leading to them moving overseas?

In these threads it always end up being: "Sure Foo would be nice, but, I don't know if you are aware, we are actually held at gunpoint by the status quo; its all really a non starter when you consider this fact."

If this is the only real problem, than why not just let them go overseas? Let the market play it out? The boon of progress and freedom X country would get from becoming even little more rational about IP would pay for itself and be better for actual people.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#283

Post by hervature »

riazrizvi wrote: post #280
duped wrote: post #31

There needs to be a "use it or lose it" doctrine/law around technological IP. I get all the arguments around creating a market for the patent rights, but it just leads to these bottom feeders creating no value and increasing costs for the industry and consumers.

While appealing to me as an entrepreneur, if I step back, I don't see how this law could work. Patent Law is the regulation of intellectual property, as such, the way property is regulated, informs the way intellectual property should be regulated. Would it be possible to pass a law that says you can't own a patch of land unless you develop it sufficiently for some public utility? You can't own it unless you build a…

> Would it be possible to pass a law that says you can't own a patch of land unless you develop it sufficiently for some public utility?

This is exactly how mineral rights work. The federal law says you need to do $100 worth of development on every claim every year to maintain it [1]. This is not something new.

[1] - https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-43/subtitle-B/chapter-II/...

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#284

Post by riazrizvi »

hervature wrote: post #283
riazrizvi wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While appealing to me as an entrepreneur, if I step back, I don't see how this law could work. Patent Law is the regulation of intellectual property, as such, the way property is regulated, informs the way intellectual property should be regulated. Would it be possible to pass a law that says you can't own a patch of land unless you develop it sufficiently for some public utility? You can't own it unless you build a…

> Would it be possible to pass a law that says you can't own a patch of land unless you develop it sufficiently for some public utility? This is exactly how mineral rights work. The federal law says you need to do $100 worth of development on every claim every year to maintain it [1]. This is not something new. [1] - https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-43/subtitle-B/chapter-II/...

Ah okay, thanks. This is what I was looking for.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#285

Post by hervature »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #262
beefield wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I offer one more alternative. Double the tax every year, and once the ip holder decides not to pay the tax, IP is released to public domain. No compnay has money to keep IP indefinitely in such a scheme.

What do you think will happen if IP becomes impossible to afford, as it surely will under such a policy? Do you think companies that value IP will bother investing further in R&D, let alone even stay in your country? Congratulations on the massive net loss in taxable income in your country. EDIT: Removed some mean words.

You do not seem to understand how patents work because of other comments thinking that you can patent something without publicly disclosing the invention. In and of itself, this comment is silly because the answer to your question "What do you think will happen if IP becomes impossible to afford, as it surely will under such a policy?" is "exactly what happens when patents expire currently." It appears you are unaware that companies still invest in R&D knowing they at most get a few decades of exclusive rights.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#286

Post by patmcc »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #262
beefield wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I offer one more alternative. Double the tax every year, and once the ip holder decides not to pay the tax, IP is released to public domain. No compnay has money to keep IP indefinitely in such a scheme.

What do you think will happen if IP becomes impossible to afford, as it surely will under such a policy? Do you think companies that value IP will bother investing further in R&D, let alone even stay in your country? Congratulations on the massive net loss in taxable income in your country. EDIT: Removed some mean words.

It'll only be impossible to hold for long periods of time. We can start the tax at $1, it hits $1mil after 20 years - and for 99.9999% of IP by year 20 it's either clearly worth zero or clearly worth >$1mil so it'll be an easy choice. It'll force things into the public domain faster and make it expensive to hold a big bullshit patent catalog, but for actively used properties it'll be fine.

Companies are going to want to sell in one of the richest markets in the world; they can either pay for IP protection or not be granted it.

edit: I'm not suggesting these exact $ values as clearly being the correct ones, it's just an example.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#287

Post by patmcc »

creeble wrote: post #271
rs_rs_rs_rs_rs wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should there be a mention about their patents?

So that one can begin to judge how duplicitous their claims in defence of another's 'invalid' patent my be.

If Cloudflare starts trying to sue or shake down folks with their patents, this will be a very valid point. Until then it's a little silly; everybody holds patents for (at least) defensive reasons.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#288

Post by patmcc »

notfed wrote: post #195
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably every pharmaceutical patent. In software? Um... . (But you asked "where patents" and not "where software patents", so...)

> Probably every pharmaceutical patent. Great, they've played their role, then. I'm ready for that stage to be over now. IMO if there's an incentive to manufacture distribute the product, let that be the incentive.

Having ~zero new drugs introduced does not seem like a great thing?

Unless you completely revamp how drug discovery and research is funded and driven, anyway.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#289

Post by tick_tock_tick »

8note wrote: post #210
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably every pharmaceutical patent. In software? Um... . (But you asked "where patents" and not "where software patents", so...)

Pharmaceutical parents seems like an odd choice. Aren't most of those inventions driven by government funding at universities?

No massive amount come from the private sector. Almost all the money used to get a hypothetically effective drug through the approval and trial process is private.

Re: Cloudflare defeats patent troll Sable at trial

#290

Post by mike_hock »

yashap wrote: post #175

Nice to see Cloudflare fighting the good fight, but patent trolls aren’t the only issue with software patents. A major issue that people talk about way less is well funded/large companies getting bullshit patents, and using them to sue their small startup competitors into the ground. It doesn’t even matter if they win - when a company with billions in the bank sues a company with millions in the bank, the small compa…

Simple solution: Abolish patents. All the rhetoric about incentivizing innovation is bullshit. They stifle innovation, and they stifle competition. They're designed to protect slow, inefficient established corporations. That's all they ever did and that's all they'll ever do.
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