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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#161
post #3

Apple's seeking to comply with the letter, rather than the spirit, of the law in order to maintain their ability to extract rents from the App Store. It's user-hostile (particularly given that they've now hobbled PWAs) but not surprising. Their behavior won't change without additional regulatory action.

> rather than the spirit

Tim Cook met personally with EU regulators before their changes were introduced.

I doubt they would knowingly introduce something that would result in a punitive fine.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. This is just such a radically different way thinking about platforms than the way that I think about them. It's like saying that I owe Facebook for the privilege of talking to my college friends because "they're not my friends, they're Facebook's users and I've been given access to them." It's har…

(I honestly wish I could so clearly order my thoughts in writing like you have done here) That it is mutually beneficial is sort of my point. If every developer jumped ship, iOS would be in trouble. But they won't. They absolutely will not. It's a humorous hypothetical. So I'm not the only one viewing the platform users as an asset. So is everyone clamoring to reach them. It's not being an evil monopoly merely to hav…

>It's not being an evil monopoly merely to have built the most desirable thing.

Yes it is. Look at Visa and MasterCard. Even if there was no anti competitive practices (which I don't know), we wouldn't want them to take 6% of every retail transaction. So the EU set a limit, I think 0.5%.

Otherwise, the rentier corporations would extract a lot of wealth from the economy, instead of the productive class (like manufacturing, services, farming, etc).

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#163

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

This is problematic argument, that imo we should not accept in _any_ commercial context.

* Are people browsing the web on an iPhone Apple's customers, and therefore 30% of web sales should be collected too?

* If you use Comcast to access the internet, are you Comcast's customer? They're giving the retailer access to your traffic, so they should take a cut of every online purchase?

* Should your headphones take a cut of all music streaming revenue, and refuse to play non-compliant music?

* Should your TV take a cut from every video stream provider they allow to show video to their customers?

There is significant value to society in general-purpose devices & services, where the user pays for something concrete, and can then use it with any 3rd party provider in any way they like.

That principle has been a key driver of digital innovation for decades, and allowing it to disappear would be a Very Bad Thing.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#164
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. On one hand it seems like Apple is trying to take a US style approach, but on the other they must have European lawyers on staff explaining how that won’t work. One might conclude that it’s a calculated risk, or a stalling tact…

I find it far fetched that Apple would either hire terrible lawyers that lead them astray or competent lawyers that they then ignore. I agree that they are probably hoping to go to court. Maybe I’m just too American to understand but the idea of “the spirit” of the law seems ridiculous. If you want the law to force Apple to allow slide loading then pass a law that says that. If you want a law that forces Apple to all…

Writing a law without loopholes has the same chances of happening as writing a program without bugs. And continuing with the analogy, a "well-written" law just means the loopholes require more resources to find, thus being available in general only to very rich entities.

However, regardless of fairness or sloppyness, if a large part of society feels the law should be interpreted in a certain way, the fact that it does not literally say that may be irrelevant. Who is going to reprimand the judges if the legislative, the government, the people, the local corporations all feel Apple should be kneecapped?

Did the constitution of the USA not literally say "all men are created equal" while you still had slavery?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#165
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then please post some source for your historical facts. Plus, Apple did the exact same things.

Here's the pg article I referred to: https://paulgraham.com/road.html

Who went bankrupt in that article?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#166
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least Microsoft can't ever ban you from selling Windows apps True; but that also means third parties can lose even more when MS pulls the rug out from under them. The developer of the third party keyboard app you refer to said, according to the article you referenced, that they lost a year of revenue. Some third party Windows devs were forced into bankruptcy.

So according to you, Apple's copying an app then banning that developer's app off the Appstore is better than Microsoft's copying an app's features while still allowing it to be sold, because in Apple's documented case one developer lost "only" a year of revenue, while in your imaginary Microsoft example, a company we don't know of went bankrupt? You're just a gift that keeps on giving. How do you come up with this r…

> copying an app then banning that developer's app off the Appstore is better than copying an app's features while allowing it to be sold?

I said no such thing. I said, by implication, that losing a year's revenue, but still having a functioning company, is better than being forced into bankruptcy.

Also, that in no way means that causing a third party app developer to lose a year's revenue is not a bad thing to do. Of course it is.

However, in both cases, the root cause is that the owner of the platform wants to run their platform in a way that third party devs don't like. And ultimately, unless the users of the platform care enough to force the platform owner to change, third party devs are simply going to be out of luck. It sucks, but that's the fact. Third party Windows apps today are for things that MS doesn't care enough about to implement themselves, because Windows users don't care that third party devs get a raw deal. Third party iOS apps are going to end up the same way, unless iOS users start to care about the sucky position third party devs are in. Which, as far as I can tell, they don't.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#167

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Windows users aren’t viewed as Microsoft’s customers from the point of view of third party software. Same with MacOS. Apple has pushed this paradigm in iOS because it’s ludicrously profitable. Control…

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers ever sold...)

Whereas Apple sold the user a phone, so the users are clearly Apple's customers. There is an argument that they are also the 3P app developer's customers, but there should be no debate about the fact that they are Apple's customers, using a platform developed by Apple. If 3P app developers want to access Apple's customers on a platform developed by Apple, then they should expect to play by Apple's rules...

(And no, I never worked for Apple. In fact, I have worked both for Google and for multiple 3P app developers who were subject to the so-called Apple Tax.)

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#168
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So according to you, Apple's copying an app then banning that developer's app off the Appstore is better than Microsoft's copying an app's features while still allowing it to be sold, because in Apple's documented case one developer lost "only" a year of revenue, while in your imaginary Microsoft example, a company we don't know of went bankrupt? You're just a gift that keeps on giving. How do you come up with this r…

> copying an app then banning that developer's app off the Appstore is better than copying an app's features while allowing it to be sold? I said no such thing. I said, by implication, that losing a year's revenue, but still having a functioning company, is better than being forced into bankruptcy. Also, that in no way means that causing a third party app developer to lose a year's revenue is not a bad thing to do. O…

Who was force into bankruptcy? You're just making stuff up at this point for a strawman argument.

Apple's walled garden can more easily force you into bankruptcy though since you have no alternative way to distribute iOS apps to customers, therefore your revenue stream can be cut off without warning. Just because that one dev in that example didn't go bankrupt, doesn't prove your argument.

Meanwhile, Microsoft can't stop you from distributing apps on Windows, even though you're clawing to some made up strawman that they can make you bankrupt. You can still sell your apps just fine on your own website and people can easily pay you, download it and install it without Microsoft's permission since you can do whatever you want with that os, just like on MacOS.

I have no idea how you can argue the latter app distribution model is worse than the walled garden one, just through two anecdotal examples.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#169

Apple's actions are anti-competitive. Spotify is a very good example. Instead of making a better product, Apple is acting to appropriate other businesses. Although the object of Apple's action is companies that try to make money that Apple wants, it is the users, the customers who pay. Apple is an anti-user platform. They are not alone in this of course. How do we change this? I, as a user, am aggrieved that Apple se…

The whole reason companies like Spotify are making a fuss about this is because Apple is making better products. If it wasn't the case Spotify would dominate the market all to itself.

But Spotify has 30% market share, Apple Music 15%. And it's because for example Apple has lossless audio, Dolby Atmos etc. Not because of any unfair competition.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#170
A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware.

At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with iDevices violate this fundamental right by controlling what software can run on the device, even before someones does anything with their device they bought. They do this not via legal means but by using cryptography to reserve the right of exclusion for themselves (they claim its for your security though...). Part of the problem is when someone sells something that in most cases that means a complete transfer of all property rights to the buyer, but Apple is preventing that via extralegal means.

Consider this scenario: you purchase a new iPhone with the intention of not even using iOS and installing something like Linux. However, Apple's control over the boot-ROM prevents the hardware from booting any unsigned code without even opening the box. This gives Apple the ability to exclude or allow software to run on a device they no longer own. The thing is, Apple legally does not have the right of exclusion, but only reserves it via cryptography. This effectively restricts the exercise of your own property rights since you no longer can fully choose what to include or exclude from execution on that ARM processor you own. The fact that this control persists post-sale demonstrates a blatant infringement on individual property rights from Apple.

In summary, Apple is intruding upon individuals' personal property rights, notably the right of exclusion. Through the use of cryptography after purchase, Apple retains the right of exclusion which lets them determine which software can and can not operate on a device they no longer own.

For a more in-depth exploration of the right of exclusion, I highly recommend reading the paper titled "Property and the Right to Exclude" [https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33139498.pdf].

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