Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 346 posts

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#51

Post by bradgessler »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

“The Cut” is analogous to a cable package with 500 channels when all you want to do is watch 3 or 4 channels.

I’d like to see Apple unbundle their take such that the maximum cut is 30% for devs who use all of the iCloud, dev, payment, and store for their apps. It’s debatable, but I think this is reasonable for this type of dev.

The problem is when I have an existing SaaS business with all that infrastructure already built—I don’t need all of Apple’s infra, so why should I have to pay for it? I’d have no problem paying Apple a % for listing and distributing through their App Store and processing payments.

Unfortunately Apple is being very short sighted about this and consequently are being forced to unbundle by the EU and it’s likely other countries will follow. That puts us in a situation where regulators are making these decisions instead of Apple, which is why I think we’re going to be in for some very janky user experiences that Apple will try to pin on regulators.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#52

Post by danielvaughn »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

I see more symmetry in the relationship between Apple and developers. It's true the platform was created out of thin air, but without the apps in the app store, it's fair to say the iPhone would not have been nearly as successful. All the dedication and work that developers put into their platform has resulted in millions of applications available on their store - that's what gives it it's value. Obviously there's no "right" number, but I think 30% is way too steep.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#53

Post by snapcaster »

_visgean wrote: post #45
snapcaster wrote: post #32

I think something missed when these issues are discussed on sites like this is just how ignorant of computing the average user is. What would be obvious for us "oh it's not from official app store, so I know to apply extra scrutiny" isn't even describable in most people's mental model of computers/smartphones. I don't want my loved ones getting scammed or hacked by people utilizing these new "freedoms". Why can't all…

Imagine if you said the same thing about computers: why do you need to install sw from anything but Microsoft store? Why can't you sideloader people need a different browser than Internet Explorer?

Exactly! I would tell those people to use Linux, not sue Microsoft to change their operating system

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#54

Post by Jensson »

musictubes wrote: post #39
orev wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. On one hand it seems like Apple is trying to take a US style approach, but on the other they must have European lawyers on staff explaining how that won’t work. One might conclude that it’s a calculated risk, or a stalling tact…

I find it far fetched that Apple would either hire terrible lawyers that lead them astray or competent lawyers that they then ignore. I agree that they are probably hoping to go to court. Maybe I’m just too American to understand but the idea of “the spirit” of the law seems ridiculous. If you want the law to force Apple to allow slide loading then pass a law that says that. If you want a law that forces Apple to all…

Trying to cover every case explicitly and rigorously just results in the legal mess the US has where you need way more lawyers than other countries to get stuff done, and still results in more abuse from companies since there will always be abusable holes in laws but there wont typically be holes in the spirit of the law.

So the main end result with the US system is that companies employs armies of lawyers so that they can legally break the laws. The main ones who benefits from that are lawyers and the massive companies who can afford them.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#55

Post by oatmeal1 »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

What would happen if this had been the standard applied to Windows?

> If the arguments were "these restrictions are so burdensome I can't be in the app store!", that's a different conversation. But they tend to be "I can access such an irresistible amount of customers via apple, I just wish I could take those benefits à la carte.

For some developers, they are. The ones that are complaining about it are the ones still trying to be in the app store despite the burden.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#56

Post by snapcaster »

_visgean wrote: post #45
snapcaster wrote: post #32

I think something missed when these issues are discussed on sites like this is just how ignorant of computing the average user is. What would be obvious for us "oh it's not from official app store, so I know to apply extra scrutiny" isn't even describable in most people's mental model of computers/smartphones. I don't want my loved ones getting scammed or hacked by people utilizing these new "freedoms". Why can't all…

Imagine if you said the same thing about computers: why do you need to install sw from anything but Microsoft store? Why can't you sideloader people need a different browser than Internet Explorer?

Also curious, why can't you just stick to android? why do you need iOS to also change to support your ideas on computing?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#57

Post by agos »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

as an EU developer, I'll offer you two points to help you see why developers are not happy (euphemism).

- I was working on an app for both healthcare professionals (paying customers) and their patients (the app was free for them). At the same time we could not have sign up for the doctors - Apple would like 30% of the subscription fee for the honor of hosting the client and its updates on their servers, but also Apple insisted vehemently that everybody should be able to sign up for the service, even if we insisted that we needed to check on their credentials (i.e. if they had a degree in medicine). We had to explain this multiple times to app review people as they kept on coming back to the same points. On the patient side, we were able to add payments to the doctors as luckily an exception had just been granted for use cases like that - up until then, Apple would have required 30% of the doctor's payment as well. We were still VERY on our toes, because the whole process felt like Apple at any time could change the rules and put us in the situation of paying a lot of money, drastically change our business model, or just shut down/lose tons of customer. While this might be technically legal, is not exactly a great business partnership.

- These rules have giant exceptions for big companies who pay a lot less or are not subject to the same level of scrutiny as smaller app makers. This feels incredibly unfair.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#58

Post by bjornsing »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

I very much agree, especially about the last part. These terms may seem like a “slap in the face”, but when you think a bit more about it: The EU themselves are 100% about “protecting consumers”. For example, the EU has made it illegal for my broker to let me buy US ETFs, because the prospectus is not available in Swedish(!). From that standpoint, how can you argue that it’s wrong for Apple to show a warning before letting a consumer send off their credit card details to a third party? And apparently that warning sign will cost most app developers more than the Apple tax (as they lose 50% of potential customers). Seems like a fair tax then.

But I think it’s also fair to note that there are app developers to whom these arguments do not apply. For example I was a Spotify customer long before I installed the Spotify app on my phone, and I don’t mind them having my credit card details.

EDIT: For clarity.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#59

Post by bitcurious »

orev wrote: post #5
cdme wrote: post #3

Apple's seeking to comply with the letter, rather than the spirit, of the law in order to maintain their ability to extract rents from the App Store. It's user-hostile (particularly given that they've now hobbled PWAs) but not surprising. Their behavior won't change without additional regulatory action.

In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. On one hand it seems like Apple is trying to take a US style approach, but on the other they must have European lawyers on staff explaining how that won’t work. One might conclude that it’s a calculated risk, or a stalling tact…

> In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games.

I was looking to confirm or deny that statement and came across a fun detour in the form of an article entitled "What's So Special About American Law?". It doesn't address the point about spirit vs. detail at all, but is an amusing and informative read.

> As I said, this fact seems to me a deep and fundamental point of difference. The American legal system, to a greater extent than any other Western legal system, encourages the direct injection of democratic values into the legal process. Our legal system, like our society, places great emphasis on the value of equality. We do not fully trust professional elites.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#60

Post by riversflow »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #47
noqc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, this should surprise no one. It is harder to read code than to write it, and Apple doesn't spend 12 trillion dollars per year on code review.

To clarify, Apple can't see our source code but I imagine they can easily diff things like binary size and have basic decompiler tools to analyze things like what system APIs are called (how they bust you for private API use etc). When we ship an update that adds a whole new branch of functionality that adds camera/mic interactions where there were none before (with all the new entitlements that requires) and the rev…

[flagged]
Post reply on HN