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Finding a new software developer job

henrikwarne.com

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Re: Finding a new software developer job

#221

Post by lazide »

Clubber wrote: post #220
lazide wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. I apologized for wasting their time and walked them out within 30 minutes. They had clearly flat out lied about their qualifications. I also got lectured by senior management for exposing them to liability since I didn’t ’go through the whole process’. And this was a middle aged white dude candidate, a small company, and about 20 years ago. The risk tolerance has only decreased since then.

>I also got lectured by senior management for exposing them to liability since I didn’t ’go through the whole process’. I work in an "at will" state. Our 3 people are usually on teams chatting about the interview going on and will decide to end it early and not waste everyone's time if it's not going well. We've never had anyone tell us they were concerned about that. What liability was senior management at your comp…

The same one FAANG used to tell us that we couldn't do it either.

To paraphase "We want to give the candidate every chance to prove themselves, and cutting the interview short gives them a bad impression of the company (and it would make it easier to sue us for unfair discrimination)."

Since it was just a few (or in this case 1) interviews, and that makes it easier to claim that I cut it short because queue whatever protected class. Which, if someone was going to be that kind of jerk to a candidate, I guess doing it on the first interview WOULD be the one, eh? It would just be my word against theirs, instead of x interviewers vs theirs.

And I guess the riskiest type of candidate for that kind of crazy behavior WOULD be the person who felt okay blatantly lying on their resume about such a fundamental fact AND EVEN SHOWING UP FOR THE INTERVIEW, come to think about it.

We didn't get sued in this case though. I think the interviewee was just surprised someone was interviewing him who actually knew how to code.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#222

Post by snotrockets »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #206
angarg12 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what part of my comment made you think that my current employer is an obstacle in job hunting. Actually it's quite the opposite, as I mention I get a lot of attention from recruiters even though I'm not actively looking. The issue I'm observing is that this attention doesn't clearly translate to more job opportunities. If my current employer was the problem, wouldn't recruiters and hiring managers not bo…

I'm speaking to your point about: > Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me My point is just that you're misunderstanding "common wisdom". In 2016, yes a job at any FAANG would mean that you have no trouble getting a new gig. In 2024 Amazon employees do not have a great reputation, so there's no reason to think of yourself as part of a group that "common wisdom…

Amazon, like any other big company, is a 1000 different small companies in a trenchcoat.

Same for the other FAANGs. Each has just as least as many meh engineers as it has great ones.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#223

Post by NoahKAndrews »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #206
angarg12 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what part of my comment made you think that my current employer is an obstacle in job hunting. Actually it's quite the opposite, as I mention I get a lot of attention from recruiters even though I'm not actively looking. The issue I'm observing is that this attention doesn't clearly translate to more job opportunities. If my current employer was the problem, wouldn't recruiters and hiring managers not bo…

I'm speaking to your point about: > Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me My point is just that you're misunderstanding "common wisdom". In 2016, yes a job at any FAANG would mean that you have no trouble getting a new gig. In 2024 Amazon employees do not have a great reputation, so there's no reason to think of yourself as part of a group that "common wisdom…

I think they were saying that because they're an experienced ML engineer more than because of what companies they've worked at.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#224

Post by throwaway_32242 »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #188
angarg12 wrote: post #103

I'm a ML Engineer at FAANG and I have been passively looking for the last half year. Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me, but my experience has been very different. * It's true that my profile attracts many messages from recruiters. However ghosting is the name of the game. More than half of recruiters have ghosted me at different stages of the process. Ove…

FAANG reputations are no longer evenly distributed. Even though most people's opinions of the company have changed, Google engineers are still widely considered to be high quality. Apple engineers also have a great reputation but it's very rare to see them on the market. Facebook/meta engineers tend to be above average but have a reputation for being aggressive corporate ladder climbers. But if I hazard a guess, if y…

I kinda agree that Amazon is no longer a resume bump. But otoh, if a company holds a lower expectation on an ex-Amazon candidate (compared with average - "quite the opposite" as you said) just because the pip thing exists, I'd say that's very short-sighted and irrational, and would probably think again if I really want to work for them. Similarly, if they automatically think that an ex-Googler is worth hiring without proper evaluation.

"Reputations" of companies you worked for should have the absolute minimum influence on any hiring decisions. Don't blame others if you don't have a proper hiring process that works for you.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#225

Post by Clubber »

lazide wrote: post #221
Clubber wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I also got lectured by senior management for exposing them to liability since I didn’t ’go through the whole process’. I work in an "at will" state. Our 3 people are usually on teams chatting about the interview going on and will decide to end it early and not waste everyone's time if it's not going well. We've never had anyone tell us they were concerned about that. What liability was senior management at your comp…

The same one FAANG used to tell us that we couldn't do it either. To paraphase "We want to give the candidate every chance to prove themselves, and cutting the interview short gives them a bad impression of the company (and it would make it easier to sue us for unfair discrimination)." Since it was just a few (or in this case 1) interviews, and that makes it easier to claim that I cut it short because queue whatever…

God I couldn't imagine conducting 6+ hours of interviews for a candidate I knew failed it within the first 30 minutes. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#226

Post by dbcurtis »

mlhpdx wrote: post #133
arter4 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but do you actually need the absolute best people around? An average company probably doesn't need exceptional developers. If you're not a tech company and you don't have an extremely challenging setup, your survival as a company doesn't rely on exceptional IT skills. You can do a lot with less than 10 virtual machines, any decent web app framework (Spring? Laravel?), and a version control system. Even apparentl…

> Sure but do you actually need the absolute best people around? No. You need a great _combination_ of people. Over my career I have seen teams assembled with “the best” folks to great fanfare an expense. Then, over and over they are schooled by a team that works great together. If there is one lesson for companies to learn in hiring/staffing/team building it’s this - focus on the team and the team’s results. Yes, th…

I would put a slightly different twist on that. A team with diverse skills and a lot of mutual trust and respect will work wonders. My current group is what you might call "debug fire jumpers" (not 100% of the role, but a significant fraction of it). Knowing I can call in an expert in an area that I am fuzzy, and there is no judgement, and we can collaboratively solve the problem, is what enables the team to deliver. So I fully agree, building a team with mutual trust and respect is the first order of business.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#227

Post by jrs235 »

jacurtis wrote: post #159
sunsunsunsun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have lost candidates at my company which we had pretty much already decided were a fit after 1-2 interviews but we're still forced to go through the rigmarole of these extra interviews over several weeks. It's not just crazy it's also a waste of time and resources.

I was interviewing with a company a year back. I had gone through 3 interviews and there were 2 more left of various song and dance required. The process was going well and I liked the company, but I was getting burnt out with the process across all my other interviews and I had received 2 other job offers that were good, so I just sent an email to the company that I was going to withdraw myself from consideration. I…

Ouch.

I'm sure leadership and HR think they're dodging bullets too...

(P.S. I think they're likely shooting themselves in the foot.)

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#228

Post by manp2 »

angarg12 wrote: post #103

I'm a ML Engineer at FAANG and I have been passively looking for the last half year. Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me, but my experience has been very different. * It's true that my profile attracts many messages from recruiters. However ghosting is the name of the game. More than half of recruiters have ghosted me at different stages of the process. Ove…

Whats your recommendation for backend engineers that want to transition to ml engineers? If you contribute to open source (tensorflow, pytorch) does that help? What is your day to day like? What minimum skill set do you need to function as MLE? Does taking ML courses in coursera help?

Best of luck to your job search, god speed

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#229

Post by dbcurtis »

Don't forget that supply and demand also apply. There have been times in the recent past where we had a shortage of good candidates in the hiring pipeline. Right now, largely because a couple major players in our area have cut back, there are a lot of great candidates in play. From the hiring side, we are interviewing so many people that we are all starting to get a bit burned out on it, but we know it is a buyers market right now, so we are not wasting any time, and also keeping a high bar. I don't know what any us can do about it when it is our turn to be a job seeker in a buyers market -- except to adjust expectations and sharpen focus on jobs that are a best fit for demonstrated experience. Hiring companies don't need to take risks on "people that could do it" in that kind of market, because they can hire someone "that has done it recently."

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#230

Post by lazide »

Clubber wrote: post #225
lazide wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same one FAANG used to tell us that we couldn't do it either. To paraphase "We want to give the candidate every chance to prove themselves, and cutting the interview short gives them a bad impression of the company (and it would make it easier to sue us for unfair discrimination)." Since it was just a few (or in this case 1) interviews, and that makes it easier to claim that I cut it short because queue whatever…

God I couldn't imagine conducting 6+ hours of interviews for a candidate I knew failed it within the first 30 minutes. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I literally couldn’t let it happen. The thought was roughly as palatable as intentionally ‘groining’ a coworker on a guardrail or letting a kid walk into traffic.

After getting chewed out, I never walked them out early though.

I guess that is why FAANG told us to not talk between ourselves and put everything into the system for the HC independently - so we wouldn’t know what we were in for, and would give each individual interview a fresh shot without all the anticipated pain and suffering. Makes it easier when you can’t see the nut shot coming I guess?

Makes sense, but yeah - terrible.

To be fair though, out of hundreds of interviews I’ve done, that was top 5ish for bad. Most were much better.

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