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Finding a new software developer job

henrikwarne.com

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Re: Finding a new software developer job

#121

Post by brailsafe »

hansvm wrote: post #73
arter4 wrote: post #2

>For a typical job there were four or five interviews: an initial interview with a recruiter, an interview with a hiring manager, one or two technical interviews (either live coding, or going through a take-home assignment). There could also be an interview with a product manager, and/or one with a CTO or founder. All in all, quite a time commitment. This is not news at this point, but it is pretty crazy.

It's a long day for sure, but honestly I don't really mind it as a candidate, and that boils down to a few reasons (1) The time cost isn't as high as it seems. If I get as far as a phone screen I'm getting an offer, nearly guaranteed. The flow chart then looks like (a) if I don't get a phone screen, that awful process is no worse than the status quo, (b) if I do, I just find out in the phone screen if the battery of…

Seems like a very personal and fortunate take depending on what you do or when in time that experience is based on, not that it's irrelevant, just far from generalizable, especially right now.

Companies are looking for almost any reason to turn someone away, so a guaranteed offer coming from a phone screen, or for that matter even getting a phone screen, is either exaggerated, you're consistently incredible, or/and you're consistently incredible and in a niche with very little competition and big names on the CV.

Even the author of the article admits they got quite lucky with the low numbers they experienced before getting an offer. I don't mean to be dismissive, but the markets are quite varying and intensely either saturated, competitive, or/and sparse right now, depnding on which market you're in and what your CV or skills look like, to the point where as a frontend dev I'm considering just switching to knitting or something more lucrative

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#122

Post by [deleted] »

eloisant wrote: post #30
Clubber wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when on-site interviews were an hour and that was it. All this stuff companies do now is insane. If a person isn't performant, you'll know within 30 days, but you'll never know by interviewing them. I haven't had to cold interview in 20+ years. I hope I never have to based on how it works now. I get all my jobs from previous colleagues. Companies are closing the door to a lot of great talent based on this…

I interviewed at Google nearly 15 years ago and it was already phone screen + a marathon of on-site interviews. Maybe 4 in a row.

[deleted]

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#123

Post by sgustard »

Clubber wrote: post #12
throwawaymaths wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not crazy. Some of these are probably what 30 minutes? Tech interviews 60 mins? So what, five hours? Remember when on-site interviews meant an hour total commute plus say six hours of total interview plus lunch event. Some high demand companies put candidates through more than one round of that. Not to mention if you were flying from out of town... I remember a friend who interviewed with Google and got stuck…

I remember when on-site interviews were an hour and that was it. All this stuff companies do now is insane. If a person isn't performant, you'll know within 30 days, but you'll never know by interviewing them. I haven't had to cold interview in 20+ years. I hope I never have to based on how it works now. I get all my jobs from previous colleagues. Companies are closing the door to a lot of great talent based on this…

Microsoft in the early 90s was a half day of onsite interviews with 5 or 6 people, plus lunch. And this was for a summer internship.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#124

Post by avg_dev »

neilv wrote: post #74

> Key Elements for Job Search Microsite > * Have a professional profile picture I don't do this, for two reasons: 1. Being a photographer taught me that I'm much better on the buttons side of the camera, not the lens side. 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Due to the long history of unfair prejudices, which are still ongoing in some ways. Even better would be if we could remove names, for being cues…

I am puzzled. I read the article and I don't see that. Did the article get updated, maybe?

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#125

Post by neilv »

avg_dev wrote: post #124
neilv wrote: post #74

> Key Elements for Job Search Microsite > * Have a professional profile picture I don't do this, for two reasons: 1. Being a photographer taught me that I'm much better on the buttons side of the camera, not the lens side. 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Due to the long history of unfair prejudices, which are still ongoing in some ways. Even better would be if we could remove names, for being cues…

I am puzzled. I read the article and I don't see that. Did the article get updated, maybe?

My mistake; I was quoting a different document, "An Engineering Leader’s Job Search Algorithm", linked from an HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39338314

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#126

Post by cannonpalms »

piecerough wrote: post #120
angarg12 wrote: post #103

I'm a ML Engineer at FAANG and I have been passively looking for the last half year. Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me, but my experience has been very different. * It's true that my profile attracts many messages from recruiters. However ghosting is the name of the game. More than half of recruiters have ghosted me at different stages of the process. Ove…

As a FAANG employee, working with ML, what do you want to get from other companies, besides more money? It's hard to have more chips, for example. You run less experiments, you have less throughput in an already computationally tight environment.

It sounds like a Staff title may be in play, although it wasn't made clear whether this would be a promotion.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#127

Post by brailsafe »

neilv wrote: post #54

> All recruiters I was in contact with asked for my CV, even though it is mostly the same information that is already on my LinkedIn profile. It is almost as if it is a sign that you are serious. I think it's a token that they can forward to an employer, establishing some degree of your consent to them representing you. (Like in a story of visiting some foreign culture, when someone offers you tea they made in some f…

Yes, this is why it's good to ask the recruiter whether they actually have any direct contact with a hiring manager, or whether they work at the company (tons of them have also been laid off in the last year). Recruiters are usually third-parties who's only job it is to accept CVs from applicants and pass them on, just one more stupid layer that gets you no further than cold applying. Often, those jobs a recruiter comes up with are reposted by other third-party companies on the same site without any text changed in the JD. Some recruiters will ask for MS word documents so it's easier to remove your contact information and add their logo.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#128

Post by brailsafe »

thehias wrote: post #79

I am a bit surprised, after reading the article I thought the author would be a junior with 5 years or less experience. With 30+ years of experience the job hunting should be easier, just call some people you know...

> just call some people you know...

Probably all unemployed too

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#129

Post by Aurornis »

angarg12 wrote: post #103

I'm a ML Engineer at FAANG and I have been passively looking for the last half year. Common wisdom might make you think that I should be having companies throwing wads of cash at me, but my experience has been very different. * It's true that my profile attracts many messages from recruiters. However ghosting is the name of the game. More than half of recruiters have ghosted me at different stages of the process. Ove…

Some perspective from the other side of this situation: I was a hiring manager at a company that paid well but not FAANG level. We had an office near a couple FAANG offices. We had a lot of applications from people who wanted out of FAANG.

Some problems we encountered when working with FAANG applicants and a few ex-FAANG hires:

* Non-transferable knowledge: Many of them had a lot of experience working within the abstractions and structures of their FAANG company, but struggled to work with foundational concepts once removed from their FAANG infrastructure. Some of them spent years trying to rebuild copies of the FAANG tooling they were familiar with just to accomplish jobs that didn't really need it.

* Experience mismatch with the current team. An extension of the above point: Some candidates were high level at FAANG but less experienced with day-to-day operations than our in-house Senior/Staff devs. This put us in an awkward spot where we'd have to pay them more than our current high level engineers to bring them in, but they'd be operating at a level below them at least to start. We opted to promote from within in these cases.

* Compensation cold feet. Many would tell us they just wanted out of their FAANG co at any cost and knew it would come with a compensation cut. But when it came down to offer time, they'd get cold feet about leaving money on the table. Even in cases where we paid within ~$50K of their FAANG comp, some of them just couldn't let it go when it came time to put in their 2 weeks' notice.

* Boomerang FAANG employees. Some people would join us, then miss the structure of blending into a big, highly structured FAANG company. They'd bounce back to the same FAANG or another FAANG within 6-18 months.

* Higher rate of candidate ghosting us than with any other cohort. It was rare for an average candidate to ghost us once the interview pipeline had started, but for whatever reason the FAANG applicants had a very high rate of getting half way through the pipeline and then disappearing without a word. Many times they'd appear again a few months later asking for a second chance, only to repeat the process.

I'm not suggesting these apply to you. Only trying to provide some perspective. Anything you can do to alleviate these concerns early might help an application process.

Of course, if your goal is to secure FAANG level compensation and Staff+ titles, you might just have to accept the reality that continuing in FAANG is far and away the easiest way to get there.

Re: Finding a new software developer job

#130

Post by Aurornis »

neilv wrote: post #74

> Key Elements for Job Search Microsite > * Have a professional profile picture I don't do this, for two reasons: 1. Being a photographer taught me that I'm much better on the buttons side of the camera, not the lens side. 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US. Due to the long history of unfair prejudices, which are still ongoing in some ways. Even better would be if we could remove names, for being cues…

> 2. Photos really don't belong in hiring in the US.

The author of the post is in Sweden, not the US.

As weird as it sounds, profile photos are prominent features of resumes in many European countries. It shocked me when I first started hiring in our EU offices, but that's just the way it is. I was surprised because we've often been told so many different ways that Europe is ahead of the US in matters of discrimination, but then I got there and resumes were full of profile pictures and even discussion about their marital status. I had our recruiter over there start erasing these things from resumes and they thought I was crazy.

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