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Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

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Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#491
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperinflation is extremely uncommon, especially in developed countries, and when it occurs it's always caused by incompetent or corrupt governments, not by the currency itself.

Sure, it multiple effect of devaluation of money. So it's just a matter of time when citizens loose trust in fiat currency and start looking for other solutions, like decentralised cryptocurrency.

Wishful thinking. Cryptocurrencies have failed to gain traction even in countries experiencing hyperinflation. People don't trust a fiat "currency" that is issued by anonymous entities and is backed by nothing. Especially when it's been known to depreciate dramatically in the blink of an eye. People trust fiat currencies that are issued by reputable institutions that give credible assurances about the purchasing power of said currencies. This is why such currencies as the US dollar and the euro are used all over the world for international trade, and cryptocurrencies are not.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have almost 6 orders of magnitude available to make the comparison with whatever transaction method you prefer. You could fly gold bars around in small planes, and it would still be more efficient than Bitcoin .

What if we have to account for all the bankers and their houses and cars and everything they need to live to continue our current financial order? People focus on simple math, but bitcoin doesnt need all the people to sign the docs and keep track of them, that's the catch.

Bitcoin isn't replacing any of them, so it's a moot point. If someone wants to buy real estate using bitcoin they are still probably going to use a realtor (or at the very least a lawyer) and they still probably need a mortgage, title insurance, and home insurance. If a company wants to go public, there is still going to be an army of i-bankers involved, even in a bitcoin denominated world.

The banking sector exists for a reason. There are certainly parts of it that are superfluous and excessive, but someone somewhere is willingly paying for that excess, and that won't change under a bitcoin regime. And I personally think that most of the excess is due to excessive speculative activity in our financial system, and if anything, bitcoin seems like it will make that part worse.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bonkers ? Bitcoins are just speculative assets . All crypto is, nobody is actually doing real economic transactions on them, I.e buying and selling services/goods for bitcoin. It is not practical to do so with transaction/gas fees . If you think of it as an Asset transactions then it makes sense, those are always expensive. A real estate deal for a house will have buyer agent, seller agent government taxes…

A digital currency using ~844 kWh per transaction is absolutely bonkers. This is irrespective of any fees, taxes, or commissions associated with the transaction. If I buy real estate with bitcoin, all of those would still apply, but my choice of using bitcoin would result in an extra 844 kWh of energy consumed compared to using cash. Bonkers.

Digital asset, not currency. That is the key difference, asset transfers being expensive(in transaction fees) is not abnormal.

I don't like it, I don't support this industry, it is still big waste of energy, however if you see it from a lens of asset instead of currency then it kind of make sense that transactions are expensive.

Money has four functions traditionally, Bitcoin does not work for three of them: medium of exchange(too expensive), unit of account(too volatile), standard of deferred payment (too volatile), it kind of works as "store of value", i.e asset despite the volatility as the deflationary pressure due to its by design purchasing power increases.

Smarter economists can explain it better than me, my point is, don't think of it as a currency, it is really not, just an asset class ( still wasteful).

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish US military could additionally use that 2.3% power.

> The Department of Defense spews so much greenhouse gas every year that it would rank as the 55th worst polluter in the world if it were a country, beating out Sweden, Denmark, and Portugal, according to a new paper from Brown University’s Costs of War project. > Why so much? Well, first off, there’s all those military buildings (some 560,000 on bases around the world) to power, heat, and cool. That accounts for abo…

Billion tons.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#495
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it multiple effect of devaluation of money. So it's just a matter of time when citizens loose trust in fiat currency and start looking for other solutions, like decentralised cryptocurrency.

Wishful thinking. Cryptocurrencies have failed to gain traction even in countries experiencing hyperinflation. People don't trust a fiat "currency" that is issued by anonymous entities and is backed by nothing. Especially when it's been known to depreciate dramatically in the blink of an eye. People trust fiat currencies that are issued by reputable institutions that give credible assurances about the purchasing powe…

Trust in traditional currency shaken quite significantly in last 3 years. Especially when inflation ruins many businesses and government justify inflation by war and green energy.

When you cannot make living from money that you get from your hard work, naturally, you are forced to look at alternatives. As more people adopt cryptocurrencies, the less value traditional currencies had and eventually ignores inflation. Which, for now, bitcoins does. It just isn't that much popular yet.

No one would expect ten years ago that some cryptocurrency would survive or be adopted by more and more people. But somehow, it's still there and grows every year.

If crypto wouldn't be a thing, there wouldn't be plans for digital Euro by ECB for example. Basically same thing as BTC, except with regulations with centralized bank.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of digital currencies. Cash is still most private and free way of exchange method. For digital, you need electricity, device and data which many cannot afford to have.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#496
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire history of fiat currency is a combination of warfare and currency collapse. Why was the Bank of England created? To wage war. Perhaps “wasting” 2% of the world’s electricity supply will look a lot better when civilization scale money laundering and currency collapse is a thing of history, not to mention the curb on national budgets being allocated to war machines!

Are you seriously arguing that money laundering or military spending will go away if Bitcoin is more widely used? Continuing this, “fiat currency” has a specific meaning in economics: it’s a currency not backed by a commodity. Bitcoin is a fiat currency because the only value it has is based on social consensus, making it exceptionally volatile, but at the time the Bank of England was founded the pound sterling was b…

Fiat currency is an excellent mechanism for stealing wealth from a population without them realising (well without them realising who took it at least). Each time they create credit by increasing the money supply with new money, they don't create value, they simply dilute the value of the money supply across more monetary units. The value in the newly printed "credit" comes from the existing money. That's why prices go up endlessly. It's not the value of things we buy increasing, but the value in our money leaking away into the money they are creating. The reality is that value of most consumables (food, electronics, cars, toothbrushes etc) is going down in value year on year by ~5% (due to efficiencies in production, automation etc) but by increasing the money supply by ~7% each year (doubling it per decade!), we actually see prices increase by ~2% average (CPI). They are essentially creaming off all the efficiency gains made by the people over the decades and then taking some more just because...they can. Meanwhile people are accusing the shops of being greedy, and employers accuse employees of being greedy for wanting a pay rise that doesn't even cover half of the pay cut they are effectively getting each year.

It also distorts other fundamental signals like GDP. Devaluing the unit of account by printing money makes the GDP figures go up because you're measuring it with something that's going down in value. Looking at the USA and accounting for money supply increase, it has had falling GDP for decades. You think your savings are going up, but they are going down etc. etc.

Money is proof of work, or it should be. To create it should take as much work as it's worth (this is true for both gold and bitcoin). In reality, the fiat we currently use is proof of work for the population, while the bankers have a free money spigot. They can pour trillions of money out of nowhere with a few keystrokes and then charge interest on it for decades to come, as if it was their own money.. It gives them undeserved, unlimited power. And what's the best way for them to get more free money? Generate more loans/credit. And what's the most effective way to do that? Trigger wars and, if possible, fund both sides.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should anyone respond and speculate based on a hastily written hypothetical? You need to put in some genuine writing effort for folks to take it seriously. Offer some substantial, falsifiable, claims/arguments/etc.

If someone wants the world economy to be based on a commodity such as the metallic ore gold, then I wonder what they think would happen to the world economy, and more importantly all of the people in it, if all of a sudden, the world supply of the metallic ore gold went up by three orders of magnitude, all owned by literally one person. Do they think people would continue to use the metallic ore gold as their currenc…

You might as well ask folks to speculate what if a pulsar by happenstance sends out a gamma ray burst that ends all life on Earth, what then?, etc...

It doesn't add any value to the discussion to speculate on such remote possibilities far into the future.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coinmint operates in an old Alcoa plant in upstate NY near Canada. It runs entirely off a dam that was built to power smelting. Power that would otherwise be going to waste (the location is too remote and too expensive to transmit elsewhere). By using the power, it actually helps keep the dam running. https://www.coinmint.one/ Update: if you're going to downvote me, see below before you do so. I have been there, I ha…

> too expensive to transmit elsewhere Citation needed . It is rarely if ever too expensive to transmit electricity anywhere . We have offshore wind solar farms in remote places , there is even cross continent lines between Africa and Spain . I am deeply skeptical it is too expensive for upstate NY to transmit power when there is probably 50 million people living in metro areas within say a 750 mile radius . Every oth…

HN citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39411064

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know. Addicts don’t like to hear about how destructive their addictions are. Our society is addicted to energy.

There's some irony to posting this on a website, run on a server powered by significant amounts of electricity, by a device operating on electricity, communicating with other electric devices via electricity to reach the destination. Are you included in this group of addicts?

> There's some irony to posting this on a website...

I try to use this medium to share a perspective that addicts wouldn't ordinarily encounter.

It's probably not very effective, since the addiction runs so deep.

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