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Permutation City (1994)

gregegan.net

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Re: Permutation City (1994)

#161

Post by edanm »

Severian wrote: post #159
edanm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm - I'm a huge fan of Greg Egan and specifically Permutation city, and also a huge fan of qntm's stories. Lena is probably the most famous, though not even the best ("I don't know Timmy" is better IMO). Also, I finally read qntm's Antimemetics division and, while it is a bit lacking in the end, it is one of the most "oh wow this is a crazy good idea" stories I've read in years.

I got a copy of the Antimemetics division too after a read through on SCP wiki. Well worth getting a physical copy to support the author. qntm is becoming one of my favorite authors as well.

IIRC I bought it on Kindle for similar reasons.

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#162

Post by _yb2s »

savingsPossible wrote: post #132
_yb2s wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neal Stephensons Anathem is also based on these same ideas- specifically the concepts of timeless physics, and the idea that mathematical and physical existence are identical.

read the two, had not connected the dots. Thanks!

I also recommend the non-fiction physics book “The End of Time” by Julian Barbour. It explains these ideas directly, and inspired Stephenson to write Anathem.

Weirdly, I happened to be reading all 3 of these around the same time, not initially realizing they were connected.

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#163

Post by jeremyjh »

ews wrote: post #152

Egan has been my favorite author for years. I like his earlier works (like this one) much more than his last books. I have the impression most books he wrote and published in the last 15 years require a Ph.D. in either Mathematics or Theoretical Physics. Permutation City was my absolute gateway drug to his work and I could not stop talking about it when it first came out. A series that explores similar ideas (althoug…

Zendegi is a recent book that is quite readable - but I agree regarding most of the others. Permutation City is one of my favorites but I think Diaspora must be my very favorite.

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#164

Post by KineticLensman »

mindcrime wrote: post #127
edanm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long wanted to read Charles Stross and somehow haven't. (Well, I read a few chapters of Accelerando years ago and never finished it, despiting liking it quite a bit.) Do you think Glasshouse is a good place to start with his writing and is representative of his style? I loved Permutation City, one of my favorite books. (I would've asked cstross himself but that would seem too awkward!)

Do you think Glasshouse is a good place to start with his writing and is representative of his style? Well... to me, I'd almost divide Stross' works into two tranches: the "The Laundry Files" books, and everything else. In that regard, I think Glasshouse is fairly representative of the "everything else" tranche. But even then, there's a fair amount of variance in his works. I wouldn't, for example, necessarily compar…

> I forgot about those, as I haven't actually read any of them (shame, shame, I know...)

It's a really great set of stories, nine in total now, and unlike The Laundry Files, a finalised / completed story arc. They evolve quite radically, from an initial portal fantasy (reporter finds herself in an apparently medieval parallel world), via trans-dimensional techno-thriller, multi-timeline developmental economics, to high-concept space war. Highly recommended.

And the Laundry Files has to be the only series I've read where vampires use agile / scrum techniques to source their blood supplies, and where an Elven combined-arms battlegroup make the Waffen-SS look like soft jessies.

Incidentally, the Laundry Files has its own separate spin-off; the New Management series. Also good fun.

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#165

Post by AgentME »

zupatol wrote: post #138
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one reads Greg Egan for the character building or any of that other literary bullshit. This is the novel that introduces the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it. Hell, it's the only novel that has that idea. There is more insight here than we could extract from a thousand other authors, philosophers, and thinkers. But who cares, the characters were sort of cardboard and he…

I justs finished reading the book and the idea that a simulation universe need not have another universe simulating it indeed baffled me. How do you make sense of that? I was disappointed there wasn't a clearer motivation for it.

(spoiler warning for others!)

Durham's "dust theory" is basically that every possible universe is simulated an infinite number of times across space and time within our universe as Boltzmann brains (he doesn't call them this but his idea of random bits of dust randomly computing things is equivalent), so actually running a simulation containing mind uploads on a computer ourselves is unnecessary to allow consciousness to exist within the simulation.

Durham describes the theory with a few more steps, like his idea of "launching" which I can't help but think Maria is correct in calling unnecessary. I think the story is trying to communicate that Durham's theory is subtly wrong or incomplete, especially when the surprising event happens at the end. I think the explanation for the surprising event at the end is (heavier spoilers ahead!) that there's a mix of Boltzmann brains running two different versions of Permutation City (one where Permutation City and the A-life universe are artificial simulations with arbitrary complicated physics and starting states exactly as we saw them be designed within the story, and one where the A-life universe is natural with a simple unified underlying physics and starting state and Permutation City is an artificial simulation/construct within it with a complicated starting state) which have been running in parallel and producing equivalent conscious experience, but by the end of the story, the latter version of Permutation City is simpler and therefore simulated in proportionally more Boltzmann brains than the first version. The latter version exists more, so when the conscious experiences of these two versions of Permutation City finally diverge, the story follows the latter version.

(I'm pretty confident in this reading of it. The story makes a regular point in talking about the complexity of the artificial simulations containing mind uploads and how much they're unlike the simple unified physics of our world. The point is brought up in a way as if the author or characters expect it to have significance; the surprising event at the end of the story is this point's significance finally being seen.)

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#166

Post by BLKNSLVR »

cdogl wrote: post #17

Egan is the only great Australian science fiction writer I’m aware of. I principally recommend Diaspora for far future post-human history with a strong focus on physics and maths, and Quarantine which is a sort of heist thriller with a unique quantum physics hook in a relatively near future Northern Australia setting where First Nations people have gained independence and positioned themselves as an Asian financial /…

Going back a while, but I really enjoyed The Resurrected Man by Sean Williams.

I have a few other books of his, some seem sci-fi, some seem fantasy, but haven't read them yet.

Seems he's not been idle: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Williams_(author)

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#167

Post by BLKNSLVR »

prepend wrote: post #134
loudmax wrote: post #43

Greg Egan's Mastodon profile is https://mathstodon.xyz/@gregeganSF He's fairly active there and likes to post math problems. I liked Permutation City, but Diaspora really blew me away. Every time you begin to get your mind around some radical new concept, Egan throws adds another fold that makes you reconsider everything you think you knew.

I think Diaspora has the best description of a valid digital identity. But I still kept thinking I’d never trust my existence to the polis/state keeping my private key private. In Diaspora if someone steals your private cert then they become you or are at least indistinguishable to everyone else from you. I’ve never seen a super solid way to prevent this when everyone and everything is digital.

I thought asking similar lines with Altered Carbon: If you can switch physical bodies, then how can you prove you're you?

Do you have to memorise a GUID? What if you forget it? What is someone else knows yours? If there's no physical link, how is it provable?

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#168

Post by ajmurmann »

zeekaran wrote: post #119
edanm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm - I'm a huge fan of Greg Egan and specifically Permutation city, and also a huge fan of qntm's stories. Lena is probably the most famous, though not even the best ("I don't know Timmy" is better IMO). Also, I finally read qntm's Antimemetics division and, while it is a bit lacking in the end, it is one of the most "oh wow this is a crazy good idea" stories I've read in years.

Make sure to read Ra as well. One of my favorite webfics. https://qntm.org/ra

I just read the Antimemetics division and qntm's short story collection. I loved the short stories and first ~40-60% of the Antimemetics Division and felt it then got too crazy and abstract. The "magic is real" thing has new worried as I usually avoid fantasy. Do you think I'll still like Ra?

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#169

Post by MeImCounting »

matkoniecz wrote: post #140
davely wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, boy. Blindsight was a book that made me realize that maybe I like the _idea_ of hard sci-fi more than I actually like reading it.

I think that Blindsight was extremely on depressing/grimderp/evil side. I really like hard SF and will never again read by this author. > Standard internet Watts warning that the Rift novels have random sexual torture just in case you prefer to avoid that in thread next to this one is not really surprising me Also, not really sure is Blindsight actually hard SF. It seems to be soft one at most with a lot getting clos…

Maybe we read totally different books called "Blindsight" by Peter Watts because this sounds like a completely different experience than what I and most other readers have had.

Re: Permutation City (1994)

#170

Post by MeImCounting »

mvdtnz wrote: post #133
davely wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, boy. Blindsight was a book that made me realize that maybe I like the _idea_ of hard sci-fi more than I actually like reading it.

Blindsight is by no means a hard sci fi book.

Somebody will always say something like this on any thread anywhere on the internet about any sci-fi. I dont know whats so attractive about gatekeeping "hard scifi" but it must be satisfying since so many people feel compelled to do so.

Regardless Blindsight is a good book and definitely has interesting concepts and good writing throughout.

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