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Fedora Atomic Desktops

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Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#81

Post by saltcured »

LooseMarmoset wrote: post #59
bsimpson wrote: post #28

If you're not familiar, the Atomic project is really interesting. Its focus is stability and reproducibility, trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`. There's a community offshoot called Universal Blue (after the original Atomic image Silverblue). It uses the standards set for containerization to make userland configuration reproducible as…

Can you explain what you mean by: "the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`"

Yeah, I am wondering the same. Is this referring to some kind of versioning conflict (like the old Windows DLL Hell)? Does that regularly happen in any Linux distribution repository? Or is this a matter of people going cowboy and mixing in other random repositories on top of the distro? I see the whole role of the distribution maintainers being to provide a self-consistent repository that doesn't have this kind of problem.

And as a long-time Fedora user, I don't think I've seen such conflicts with the moral equivalent yum/dnf command. But, I am somewhat rigid about not adding third party repos or RPMs to my systems. The only two exceptions I've come to accept are repos from rpmfusion.org and postgresql.org.

While I have certainly seen some bugs in Fedora over the decades, I don't see how some "atomic" solution helps here unless it means reorganizing the community QA resources to test some "minor releases" which batch together a set of package updates, versus trying to support continuous integration where each package can update individually. That would actually worry me though, as my own career experiences cause me to prefer continuous-integration approaches like the traditional Fedora distribution.

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#82

Post by jcastro »

discardedrefuse wrote: post #72

Questions for Silverblue / Atomic Users: I tried Silverblue a couple years ago and found myself rpm-ostree layering some basic tools like Fish shell and Mosh. Is layering still the preferred method for installing these types of tools or do you have "generic" container (made with toolbox/distrobox) that you jump into for generic shell work in like ssh'ing around and file management? Also, how do you handle things like…

`/usr/local` is writeable so no change there, that should work fine. I keep a container as my "day to day" linux and just have my terminal autolaunch into mine. You can use any distro's container for this so it's personal preference.

I'm using Prompt, it's a new terminal designed to make the toolbox/distrobox flow much nicer: https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt

It's still relatively new so it isn't on flathub yet but it makes everything mostly seamless.

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#83

Post by bsimpson »

LooseMarmoset wrote: post #80
iknowstuff wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What fragility is that? The one described in detail in this document?” Yes, indeed it is

so, installing random software from random repositories equals fragility? that doesn't seem specific to apt at all. however the article is written Fedora-specific, so maybe people don't like to point out that dnf/yum is susceptible to the same problem. In fact, the article doesn't even try to call out apt, or fragility. There is a use case for immutable distributions, just as there is one for those distributions whic…

Nobody's saying "apt is fragile." I used it as an example because it's the install command I'm familiar with, and the one I see most often in Linux install instructions. Ubuntu's popularity made it the default package manager when outsiders think "Linux."

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#84

Post by discardedrefuse »

jcastro wrote: post #82
discardedrefuse wrote: post #72

Questions for Silverblue / Atomic Users: I tried Silverblue a couple years ago and found myself rpm-ostree layering some basic tools like Fish shell and Mosh. Is layering still the preferred method for installing these types of tools or do you have "generic" container (made with toolbox/distrobox) that you jump into for generic shell work in like ssh'ing around and file management? Also, how do you handle things like…

`/usr/local` is writeable so no change there, that should work fine. I keep a container as my "day to day" linux and just have my terminal autolaunch into mine. You can use any distro's container for this so it's personal preference. I'm using Prompt, it's a new terminal designed to make the toolbox/distrobox flow much nicer: https://gitlab.gnome.org/chergert/prompt It's still relatively new so it isn't on flathub ye…

Good to know. Thanks for the info! I'll be keeping on eye on Prompt.

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#85

Post by exe34 »

hollerith wrote: post #16
exe34 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if there's the slightest issue with the update, you can just reboot into the previous generation and continue working until you have time to figure it out later, or just wait until it's fixed!

Fedora atomic desktops have that property, too, without the wasteful property I just described.

Yes, there is a garbage collector to get rid of the old stuff you don't need anymore!

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#86

Post by bravetraveler »

saltcured wrote: post #81
LooseMarmoset wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what you mean by: "the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`"

Yeah, I am wondering the same. Is this referring to some kind of versioning conflict (like the old Windows DLL Hell)? Does that regularly happen in any Linux distribution repository? Or is this a matter of people going cowboy and mixing in other random repositories on top of the distro? I see the whole role of the distribution maintainers being to provide a self-consistent repository that doesn't have this kind of pr…

> But, I am somewhat rigid about not adding third party repos or RPMs to my systems.

This is the reason why packages seem so stable, you're deliberately staying within a well-tested ecosystem.

Fedora release upgrades probably go well for you also!

Packages themselves are a perfectly fine distribution method [under the same guidance].

Once you start mixing packaging spec guidelines; packages of varying quality, you end up wanting compartmentalization like containers/bubblewrap

Off the cuff example: Fedora makes heavy use of macros in their RPM specs. Most third party packages don't.

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#87

Post by dusanh »

tmountain wrote: post #25

I just got into Silverblue (also love Nix), and I really feel that it's the way Linux "should be". I say this as a Linux user since 1999. If you haven't checked it out, imagine that the base (read-only) operating system (drivers, etc) changes in a very controlled and atomic fashion while all your userland stuff is updated via Flatpak (or Distrobox, etc). The odds of breaking your system are virtually zero, and everyt…

Does Silverblue have the same plaintext system configuration capabilities like NixOS?

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#88

Post by curt15 »

Andrex wrote: post #55
bsimpson wrote: post #21

I know that Silverblue and Kinoite are more established, but I would have liked to see a consistent rebrand. "Fedora GNOME Atomic" is a better name for the same reasons that "Fedora Sway Atomic" is.

It would be called "Fedora Workstation Atomic" unless they wanted to rename the Workstation branding too. Keeping Silverblue makes sense to me with that in mind. I feel like Fedora Kinoite should be renamed though. The one "halo" distro can use a distinct name but everything else should follow the new pattern IMO.

Silverblue is itself a rebranding of "Fedora Atomic Workstation"

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#89

Post by rcarmo »

bsimpson wrote: post #28

If you're not familiar, the Atomic project is really interesting. Its focus is stability and reproducibility, trying to solve the fragility that can happen when the default way to use software in Linux is `sudo apt-get install`. There's a community offshoot called Universal Blue (after the original Atomic image Silverblue). It uses the standards set for containerization to make userland configuration reproducible as…

Bazzite is pretty great (I have set up a Steam streaming VM using it). I am also using Silverblue as an ML sandbox, with good results.

Re: Fedora Atomic Desktops

#90

Post by arrakeen »

bsimpson wrote: post #49
jorvi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It uses the standards set for containerization to make userland configuration reproducible as well. There's a manifest (Containerfile) that enumerates all the modifications, which means an upgrade is bump the version of the base image and replay all the modifications from the manifest. Is the containerfile syntax and reproducibility as good as configuration.nix / NixOS? I love NixOS but it’s a very acquired taste,…

I've only used NixOS, but the Containerfile looks more like a shell script than a Nix config: https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/Containerfile

    AS incomprehensible && \
       as nix can be && \
       i would take it && \
       any day over && \
       configuring a desktop OS && \
       with the horrible && \
       Dockerfile syntax
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