Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#31

Post by Kaizyn » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:04 AM UTC

TorbjornLunde wrote: post #16

guynamedloren wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is simply not enough not time to become really knowledgable in both. Please elaborate. Humans live a very long time. Are you suggesting that design and code evolves so quickly that it is impossible to keep up?

Upon further reflection I don’t think it’s impossible, but I still think it’s probably very difficult. Both design and coding are both huge fields. I am not merely talking about becoming a good designer and developer at once, but becoming one with a lot of knowledge in both. Just take the long lists of things that that relate to each field: Design: interaction design, information architecture, illustration, visual de…

Do you suppose that medieval master craftsmen had to pick and choose between being very good at using specialized tools to make things and being very good at knowing about the 'human factors' that go into making an object appropriate and desirable to people?

How is this any different? On one hand, you have a set of tools along with a craft of making things with those tools. On the other, you have a set of skills that help you determine the necessary characteristics of the crafted artifact so that it is pleasing to its end user.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#32

Post by adrianhoward » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:10 AM UTC

andrewfelix wrote: post #23

SeoxyS wrote: post #15

I consider myself both a designer and a developer, and wouldn't have it any other way. One day I will be pushing pixels, the next I will be writing an ad targeting algorithm in Clojure. Do you think it's impossible to be good both at Graphic Design and playing the piano? No. Why should it be any different with development? Your mixed skill-set makes you an easily differentiable and incredibly valuable personality. I…

>I consider myself both a designer and a developer But do you consider yourself 'excellent' at both?

But do you consider yourself 'excellent' at both?

Do you know anybody who is expert in everything in design or development?

If not, why does it matter if somebody chooses to specialise in a subset of design and development - rather than a subset of design or development.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#33

Post by plq » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:12 AM UTC

First, know thyself. If you don't have talent, or you do but can't stand hunting that race condition for days, or can't obsess on the tone of green that will convey that company's corporate identity better, you will fight an uphill battle for skills that others master much more easily.

That said, I'd say that the general advice goes like this: If you want to work in a corporate environment with lots of managers to report to, specialize as much as you possibly can. That's "knowing everything about nothing" as my adviser in grad school used to say. Companies with a high number of employees tend to prefer specialists. They of course need people with a high range of skills in upper layers of management, but you won't get there first thing you set your foot through the door, it'll take you years.

But if you'd rather work in a start-up environment, or just be your own boss, you need to know everything from the tradeoffs of apache vs nginx to which css tags render differently in Firefox and Webkit.

That's more a lifestyle choice, in my opinion. You can get successful both ways.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#34

Post by dsirijus » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:17 AM UTC

jamesflorentino wrote: post #9

Unfortunately, there will always be a multi-classing penalty of sort. (I'm one of those people who code and design for web development, but masters neither.) For design, I've learned that the essential trait is to set one's mindset and philosophy on problem solving (as well as have an intrinsic taste for art). For code, I believe it is quite similar. Except that standards and practices constantly change. As a designe…

Multi-classing penalty, of course, applies. BUT there are classes that are multi-skillful by itself. And you can be excellent in those, even if they fall behind in any particular skill behind the more focused ones. That being said, I've always played rogue or bard. :{-

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#35

Post by nimbleNima » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:18 AM UTC

Everyone wants to compartmentalize you. Many cannot interpolate the steps required to go from being very good to being excellent, so they scoff, and they try to impart advice. How are "very good" and "excellent" even quantifiable? Let them say what they will. Nod, respectfully. Then carry on. You belong in another crowd--a rarer crowd. You absolutely may be a designer and front-ender. I'd even speculate that these two crafts complement each other in making you better at both. You won't mindlessly design something that is artistic, yet up in the clouds (because you have a foundation in usability and functionality). Similarly, you won't create an unappealing and thoughtless front-end, because you have an affinity towards--and respect for--beauty. Your boss meant well, I'm sure, and in most respects, it certainly is a good idea to narrow in on your expertise, but these two trades, particularly, do not conflict. Whenever faced with two choices, those who truly distinguish themselves are the ones who say, Fuck it. I'm doing both.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#36

Post by andrewfelix » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:19 AM UTC

adrianhoward wrote: post #32

andrewfelix wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I consider myself both a designer and a developer But do you consider yourself 'excellent' at both?

But do you consider yourself 'excellent' at both? Do you know anybody who is expert in everything in design or development? If not, why does it matter if somebody chooses to specialise in a subset of design and development - rather than a subset of design or development.

Read the OP title: 'Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?'

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#37

Post by ranman » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:20 AM UTC

Yes. Don't be excellent AT something. Just be excellent.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#38

Post by rdavl » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:22 AM UTC

guynamedloren wrote: post #13

TorbjornLunde wrote: post #7

I think there is simply too much stuff to know about in both coding and design. There is simply not enough not time to become really knowledgable in both. However, I am not sure if you really need to be super knowledgeable to benefit from knowing both sides of the fence. I’m sure it’s possible to become really good at a subset of coding and design. By the way: these are just my musings. I’m very early in my career my…

> There is simply not enough not time to become really knowledgable in both. Please elaborate. Humans live a very long time. Are you suggesting that design and code evolves so quickly that it is impossible to keep up?

Saying that humans live a very long time is quite relative. Compared to what? A butterfly or a solar system?

> An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which > can be made, in a narrow field. - Niels Bohr

I don't think most people can be experts in couple of things, as it requires too much time to be expert in at least one of them (but there are always an exceptions).

I agree it is good to know a lot of things but I doubt one can be master of all trades. These days even car mechanics get specialized for a brand of cars.

In area of web design there is a myriad of technologies included in the process of developing a web site or an application.

There is HTML/CSS frontend, there are server side apps (in all kinds of languages), there are couple of web servers, there are few platforms on which those web servers run, and there is a database layer.

You can be an expert in any of these, but hardly all of them, since most of these are generic terms. What kind of database? There are experts for Oracle, there are experts for Postgres, experts for MSSQL etc... Then there are those who excel in maintaining web servers either nginx or apache or IIS etc, there are those who are experts in node.js there are experts in Django. And you could go deeper and deeper still.

And this is just a development part, if you put graphics design into picture there are wast number of options from which to choose that you can be expert in.

But do keep in mind I am talking about being an expert, you can have sufficient knowledge in HTML/CSS/Server side apps/Web servers/Databases to build a web site but you will hardly ever be expert in all of them.

Maybe I am wrong, but I do agree that it is near impossible to be expert in couple of things.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#39

Post by michaelpinto » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:24 AM UTC

your problem is that you use the word "excellent" but don't bother to define what exactly that means.

for example: how about in terms of being an "excellent designer" we say that means something like being a winner in the annual AIGA design competition. and how about as an "excellent coder" we don't mean someone who is just good, or even great -- but someone who has actually contributed something to the field. this could be a new language or crafting the next twitter.

so by really embracing what "excellent" means the chances are you won't be in the top 1% of two somewhat different fields. if you want a good example of this from another world think how many rock stars can go on to become oscar winning actors? now can a rock star be an actor -- of course! but it would be a real rare bird for someone to be brilliant at both. so yeah we all LOVE elvis, and his movies were all enjoyable -- but he just wasn't an excellent actor.

side note: i'd also dare say that if you're looking at design as being "photoshopping" and at code as being a "code wrangler" you're looking at the production end of each process rather than the planning and/or architecting.

Re: Is it possible to become 'excellent' at both design and coding?

#40

Post by antninja » Sat, May 05, 2012, 9:25 AM UTC

I think one can be excellent at both design and front-end development. That's what web design is all about anyway. It's made of CSS and Javascript and Canvas animations, not just Photoshop mock-ups.

Back-end development, however, is a full-time job. Not installing a CMS but making a new one. Doing two full-time jobs would require sacrifice of excellence or of one's private life. There are just too many things to learn in each activity.