Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power • Hacker News Board

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#241

Post by quandrum » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #148

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

> There is no comparison made to the energy consumption of the traditional banking industry, which I am sure is not a particularly energy-efficient industry. This is your first mistake: the traditional banking system does not have a security model predicated on the ability to waste power. Bitcoin does, and it’s dynamic so there’s no way to waste less power which isn’t explicitly ceding control. The second error is tr…

There's also the fact all the power draw of the traditional banking industry is also in the crypto and not accounted for in this analysis.

Crypto still needs POS systems and accounts and large staffs in large offices and all the trappings of finance outside of mining.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#242

Post by lottin » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #149

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

Visa used 189GWh in 2017, worldwide, of which around half was data centres [1]. That handled 111.2 billion transactions, so about 1.7Wh per transaction (half for datacentres). Bitcoin used 844670Wh per transaction [2]. [1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/corporate-responsibil... [2] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

And it's worse. Bitcoin doesn't even work. Imagine paying with bitcoins at the grocery store.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#243

Post by tgv » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #149

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

Visa used 189GWh in 2017, worldwide, of which around half was data centres [1]. That handled 111.2 billion transactions, so about 1.7Wh per transaction (half for datacentres). Bitcoin used 844670Wh per transaction [2]. [1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/corporate-responsibil... [2] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

I imagine much of Visa's data centre capacity goes to serving web pages and all that. I know of a bank that would run millions of transactions per day in a couple of hours on an IBM mainframe (at night, after closing). While they are power hungry machines, I can't imagine them using 1MW. So I think 1.7Wh per transaction is at least an order of magnitude too high.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#244

Post by Symbiote » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

digging wrote: post #207

ziddoap wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're brave to even remotely hint that you're in favor of crypto on HN! > Energy consumption is frankly not a phenomenon I give two shits about, as an environmentalist. Despite a few people specifically calling this sentence out as 'ridiculous' or whatever, I think this is a completely valid point. If 100% of the energy powering something comes from renewables, who gives a shit?

I don't even like it, I kind of wish it hadn't been invented, but rationality is vanishingly rare when it's discussed. And I am certain many will say the same of everything I post.

You justified it above as being useful for scammers and speculative investors.

It's rational to conclude the costs are not worth those supposed benefits.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#245

Post by digging » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

banannaise wrote: post #223

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

Energy consumption by banking? We can calculate that. All commercial buildings in the United States used about 6.8 trillion BTUs, or 2 trillion kWh (2 petawatt-hours), of power in 2018 [1]. That's just over half of the 3.9 petawatt-hours used by the country as a whole [2]. Of that, 16% was consumed by offices [3], so we're down to 8%. That's all office buildings, so what percentage of office building space is devoted…

> Energy consumption by banking? We can calculate that.

Great, thank you for doing so. I wish TFA had given even half this effort.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#246

Post by SeanAnderson » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

realreality wrote: post #173

jgilias wrote: post #103

The whole idea that you can sort energy usage into useful for society or not buckets is pretty ridiculous. Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? The very idea of sorting energy use like that is a very slippery slope. We have markets for a reason. They help us determine how the aggregated society values one or another thing without relying on value judgment.

> Ok, Bitcoin bad. What about video games? Netflix? Porn? Yes, they're all bad. Markets are no substitute for morality. And if the market properly accounted for environmental damage, all of those uses of energy would be priced out of existence.

I don't think you're going to make many friends arguing that all electronic recreational activities are bad.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#247

Post by bsdpufferfish » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

spankalee wrote: post #158

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

> Energy consumption is frankly not a phenomenon I give two shits about, as an environmentalist. Fossil fuel consumption is. Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. Electricity is one of the most fungible things in existence, and renewables don't yet make up 100% of production, therefore any additional consumption _for the most part_ might as well be 100% generated from fossil fuels. Even if a miner has a contract…

Most miners are capturing energy through government corruption or through means that are not otherwise usable such as waste gas in oil fields or remote mills.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#248

Post by uni_rule » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

digging wrote: post #81

jmull wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no single fix, of course. In situations like this you prioritize... you cut the larger things that have the least value per amount of energy used. Ending crypto mining is the easiest no-brainer in the history of energy systems.

> Ending crypto mining is the easiest no-brainer in the history of energy systems. Ending any profit-generating activity is incredibly difficult. I suspect you're not referring to ending it, but allowing it to be transferred offshore and losing the ability to regulate it. But if it's banned in the US, good luck getting every other country on earth to ban it in solidarity.

Considering how broadly unpopular the idea is to average people who don't aspire to own cryptocurrency (especially after FTX publicly ate its own organs) I don't see it being particularly difficult to find support for such laws in more liberal places such as the EU.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#249

Post by o39245o9qw34u5 » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

webignition wrote: post #89

I live in a house house exclusively warmed by electric heating (underfloor downstairs, wall-mounted upstairs). The heating system takes electricity as an input and provides heat as an output with no other direct benefits. As a whole the heating system can be quite power-hungry during cold periods. A crypto mining rig takes electricity as an input and provides heat as an output with the possible benefit of creating so…

I will admit that is an interesting argument, but it doesn't hold up when applied in the real world.

First off, heating your house directly with electricity is a bad idea. A heat pump could be as much as 4x as efficient as direct heating. Improving the insulation in your house so you don't need as much heating is even better.

After those problems are solved I started to say "If you want to then do the remaining 1/10-as-much-as-before heating by mining bitcoin, then go ahead", but honestly that's still a bad idea because it supports and grows this insanely wasteful industry and that will incentivize other people to build more of these ridiculously wasteful and destructive mining operations.

The nerd part of me thinks bitcoin is super cool. The responsible adult who cares about people other than myself part of me hates it.

Re: Just 137 crypto miners use 2.3% of total U.S. power

#250

Post by throw0101d » Fri, Feb 09, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

digging wrote: post #57

I'm not a crypto proponent per se, but I do feel the need to be reasonable about it, and this reads like pure emotional anti-cryptocurrency sentiment. (edit: while I still can, I'm going to jump in and repeat that I'm criticizing this as a bad article which isn't saying anything very meaningful on its own. Thanks everyone for doing the author's work for them and gathering more data. I won't be upset if it's proven th…

> Energy consumption is frankly not a phenomenon I give two shits about, as an environmentalist. Fossil fuel consumption is.

Production of any energy causes pollution: those wind turbines and solar panels aren't carbon-free, they took a bunch energy/carbon to produce ("embodied carbon").

Increasing energy use for anything causes the need to produce new plants to be built. If you can use less energy to produce the same results and thus reduce demand it may obviate the need for more more supply in the first place.