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Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

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Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#31

Post by brudgers »

jerf wrote: post #29
brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "they just side with whoever is more charismatic" Same might be said about technical people when it comes to Google and Oracle.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, flip the names on the case and I'll take the same side on the issues as I do now. What Oracle's argument has pivoted into is catastrophic if they win with it. It makes our patent mess look pedestrian. It's so catastrophic that I don't think there's any chance of it actually staying in their favor, even if it takes direct legislative action, but ye gods will it cause an epic, in…

Google's business model built upon a disregard for everyone's IP has pretty significant implications as well.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#33

Post by lucian303 »

@ShardPhoenix It IS completely insane to have a jury, a group of people specifically chosen because of their below-average intelligence and lack of technical knowledge, decide any kind of technical questions, especially this. Sad place we inhabit in this universe indeed ...

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#34

Post by JamisonM »

ShardPhoenix wrote: post #32

It seems completely insane to have a jury of random people decide these kind of technical questions.

The only thing more insane would be having one or a few persons with clear history of positions on an issue decide these kinds of questions. That is what you end up with if you use "experts" -- people with some sort of vested interest in a position that really can't possibly be impartial.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#35

Post by rayiner »

ShardPhoenix wrote: post #32

It seems completely insane to have a jury of random people decide these kind of technical questions.

They give the jury very detailed guidance, in layman's terms, for each question. The jury is not being asked to use any technical expertise--they're being asked to judge the credibility of the experts who have presented each side's evidence.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#36

Post by rayiner »

pan69 wrote: post #9
mauriciob wrote: post #4

From the comments: The form says only to answer 4 if they answered YES to 1A, Google _has_ infringed the SSO Having a Jury with no technical knowledge would obviously lead to this.

Having a Jury would obviously lead to this. Not meaning to offend anyone but; to me a jury system is the most backward way of justice. Simply grab a random group of people of the street to essentially make life impacting decisions based on the theatrical performance of a lawyer. It's like saying; Hey guys, we're short on brain surgeons, we're going to introduce brain surgeon duty. Everyone can cut meat, right?

The jury is given a lot more guidance and instruction than what you see on those forms. The judge spoon feeds them the law and the experts spoon feed them the technical information. And of course the judge retains substantial discretion to set aside the conclusions of the jury. The stuff about "theatrical performance" is more TV than reality. It's very important as a lawyer to be able to explain complicated concepts to the jury in a way they understand, but that's clarity not theatrics.

The jury is mostly there to weigh the credibility of the witnesses and experts. E.g. do we believe this Google witness when he says he didn't know about X? We do this for a very sensible reason, which is that it makes the legal system credible. It's very easy to lose faith in the judicial system because you don't trust judges, etc. It's easier to put your faith in a jury of your peers. And at the end of the day, as a dispute resolution mechanism that's what the judicial system depends on: faith that it will render fair judgments.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#37

Post by rayiner »

busyant wrote: post #14
rbanffy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jurors work on some issues - whether A killed B - but applying a non-technical jury to something as far from common daily experience of most people is, to say the least, dangerous.

I know several expert witnesses who agree. They say the jury never understands their testimony, and they just side with whoever is more charismatic. Several experts have told me this in various forms.

Expert witnesses are also on sale for the highest bidder. Pot, kettle, etc.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#38

Post by rayiner »

stdgy wrote: post #27
0xABADC0DA wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Any jury, technical or not, should find 1A for Oracle. "Has Oracle proven that Google has infringed the overall structure, sequence and organization of copyrighted works?" As far as I can tell nobody disputes that Google lifted the Java API's structure, sequence, and organization from Sun, and the judge told them to consider SSO copyrightable. Most programmers think it's ok to rip off an API because otherwise…

I don't think either side disputes that Google implemented a portion of the Java API, which they copied from Apache Harmony. But they certainly seem to disagree on what qualifies as a meaningful definition of SSO, with Oracle arguing that both the entirety of Java and individual packages qualify as SSO.

It's not the jury's job to decide whether that qualifies as SSO, that's the judge's job. It's the jury's job to decide what people actually did, whether they did what they say they did, etc.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#39

Post by rbanffy »

brudgers wrote: post #18
busyant wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several expert witnesses who agree. They say the jury never understands their testimony, and they just side with whoever is more charismatic. Several experts have told me this in various forms.

> "they just side with whoever is more charismatic" Same might be said about technical people when it comes to Google and Oracle.

And, apparently, not every technical person agrees on which site is more charismatic.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google has reached a verdict on all questions but one

#40

Post by rbanffy »

rayiner wrote: post #35
ShardPhoenix wrote: post #32

It seems completely insane to have a jury of random people decide these kind of technical questions.

They give the jury very detailed guidance, in layman's terms, for each question. The jury is not being asked to use any technical expertise--they're being asked to judge the credibility of the experts who have presented each side's evidence.

It's like asking a dozen parakeets which of the two nuclear physicist in the room is right about string theory. I fail to see how their opinion can be relevant.
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