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A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

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Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#121

Post by tiberious726 »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #101
efitz wrote: post #51

We know that octopuses and many other animals are intelligent. We don't know for certain if anything nonhuman is sentient. Scientists and activist groups have been designing frameworks for sentience and tests to measure it. This paper [1] (about crabs, but discusses octopuses) has a very interesting section talking about defining and measuring sentience. It was used to support a recent bill in the UK [2] attempting t…

> We know that octopuses and many other animals are intelligent. We don't know for certain if anything nonhuman is sentient. You are mixing up terms. All animals are sentient. Not all animals are intelligent. Only very few animals appear to be sapient . Octopuses are certainly one of the few animals that appear to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

Octopus' sapience is absolutely not beyond a reasonable doubt: many consider passing the turning test, or an even stronger form thereof to be required for sapience

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#122

Post by PrimeMcFly »

tiberious726 wrote: post #121
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that octopuses and many other animals are intelligent. We don't know for certain if anything nonhuman is sentient. You are mixing up terms. All animals are sentient. Not all animals are intelligent. Only very few animals appear to be sapient . Octopuses are certainly one of the few animals that appear to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

Octopus' sapience is absolutely not beyond a reasonable doubt: many consider passing the turning test, or an even stronger form thereof to be required for sapience

> Octopus' sapience is absolutely not beyond a reasonable doubt:

I mean, for the standard definition of sapience it is.

> many consider passing the turning test, or an even stronger form thereof to be required for sapience

Those many are wrong. There is nothing in the definition of sapience that would tie to to something as specific to humans as the Turing test.

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#123

Post by sterlind »

efitz wrote: post #51

We know that octopuses and many other animals are intelligent. We don't know for certain if anything nonhuman is sentient. Scientists and activist groups have been designing frameworks for sentience and tests to measure it. This paper [1] (about crabs, but discusses octopuses) has a very interesting section talking about defining and measuring sentience. It was used to support a recent bill in the UK [2] attempting t…

For that matter, I don't know that any human besides myself is sentient. You could all be philosophical zombies. Science fundamentally can't answer this question, since sentience (i.e. experiencing qualia) is a subjective, first-person phenomenon, and science can only test objective, third-person reality.

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#124

Post by corethree »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #111
mytailorisrich wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chickens have been domesticated a long time ago because they were around, flightless, and easy to breed. You won't even see a penguin until you reach high latitudes and they eat fish... Even if they both tasted good (which I have no idea) very obvious practical reasons would explain the difference.

For some reason I think penguins would taste very rich and gamey. I think I'm imagining this due to their cold resistance implying large amounts of fat. Anyone know?

Lots of umami. Especially the baby ones that still have fur. I get hungry just thinking about it.

The adults get too muscular from all the torpedoing through the water.

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#125

Post by lazyasciiart »

pvaldes wrote: post #107

I wouldn't discard the alternative possibility that we should choose to ignore "activists". After all, people may have a hidden agenda, conflicts of interest, or be simply a bunch of uneducated morons craving for attention. Why to choose them as figure of authority at the same level of researchers that proven real effort searching for truth and spent ten years acquiring real knowledge? Oh, Is for the promises of viol…

What makes you dismiss the years of effort put in by researchers who are quoted supporting the activists?

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#126

Post by corethree »

irrational wrote: post #82
corethree wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ok. It can be like wagyu. Imported fresh baby penguin meat straight from the north pole.

South pole. Penguins life in Antarctica and regions thereabouts while polar bears live in the Arctic.

It's like Himalayan sea salt. It's just marketing jargon.

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#127

Post by Havoc »

The whole too smart thing seems so arbitrary to me.

Like this animal can solve a puzzle thus it can't be farmed. The other animal can't. But if we scare/hurt them they both react in fear/pain.

IQs are we talking here? Suduko? Puzzle? Open a door? Use a tool? Care for its youngs? Stand under roof when it rains?

I can wrap my head around both stances (eat animals freely or full veg only)...bit this arbirary line in sand approach I struggle with. May as well go with an arbitrary "this one is cute so we won't eat it" approach

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#128

Post by lm28469 »

Havoc wrote: post #127

The whole too smart thing seems so arbitrary to me. Like this animal can solve a puzzle thus it can't be farmed. The other animal can't. But if we scare/hurt them they both react in fear/pain. IQs are we talking here? Suduko? Puzzle? Open a door? Use a tool? Care for its youngs? Stand under roof when it rains? I can wrap my head around both stances (eat animals freely or full veg only)...bit this arbirary line in san…

People arguing that would be happy if no animals were farmed at all.

The opposite argument is equally dumb, you wouldn't legalize crack because beer is a drug and beer is legal

Re: A seafood firm wants to farm octopus. Activists say they're too smart for that

#130

Post by steve_adams_86 »

hellisothers wrote: post #62
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older I get, the more I have the sense (both intuitively and through evidence) that I'm far more like the animals I've eaten than I am unlike them. That sense has become more and more attuned, and it has gotten to the point that I don't see animals as food anymore. They're just a different kind of people trying to survive. Since I don't actually need to eat them to survive, it seems akin to murder to consume them…

I recommend the book Tender is the Flesh, I think you’ll love it

Thanks, this looks like a good read!
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