Live data from Hacker News

Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

arxiv.org

21–30 of 133 posts

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 'only' usage in the winning position could be a decisive for gaining GM rating.

Positions with 99% win percentage are not decisive for GM vs non-GM rating.

They are once your opponents know you’re very bad at converting them.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 'only' usage in the winning position could be a decisive for gaining GM rating.

Positions with 99% win percentage are not decisive for GM vs non-GM rating.

Proof?

For winning any game at some point (at the end of the game) there will be a position with >99% winning chances. The move that follows are decisive.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#23

The path to AGI: 0. Have model A. 1. Use Monte Carlo with A to get supervised data. 2. Train model B with data from A. 3. Use Monte Carlo with B to get supervised data. 4. Train model C with data from B...

This is pretty close to how AlphaZero works.

https://medium.com/applied-data-science/alphago-zero-explain...

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#24

The path to AGI: 0. Have model A. 1. Use Monte Carlo with A to get supervised data. 2. Train model B with data from A. 3. Use Monte Carlo with B to get supervised data. 4. Train model C with data from B...

That's basically how OpenAI is working. They use generated training sets from one model to train the next model (plus other stuff with it).

But the "other stuff" is pretty important. That is what pulls it away from just constantly re-amplifying the bias in the initial training data.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#25

There is rampant misunderstanding of some parts of this article; allow me to help :) The "no-search" chess engine uses search (Stockfish) in in two ways: 1. To score positions in the training data. This is only training data, no search is performed when actually playing. 2. To play moves when the position has many options with a 99% win rate. This is to prevent pathological behavior in already won positions, and is n…

"Aready won position" or "99% win rate" is statistics given by Stockfish (or professional chess player). It is weird to assume that the same statement is true for the trained LLM since we are assessing the LLM itself. If it is using during the game then it is searching, thus the title doesn't reflect the actual work.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#26
Slightly off topic but am I the only one that approaches strategy games by making a "zeroth order approximation". Eg find the shortest path to victory under the (obviously faulty) assumption that my opponent does nothing and the board is unchanging except for my moves. Now find my opponents shortest path to victory under the same assumption. Then evaluate, if we both just ignore each other and try to bum rush the victory condition, who gets there first?

For most games, if you can see a way to an end state within 3-5 steps under these idealized conditions, there's only so much that an actual opponent can do to make the board deviate from the initial static board state that you used in your assumption. The optimal strategy will always be just a few minor corrections of edit distance from this dumb no-theory-of-mind strategy. You can always be sure that whoever has the longer path to victory has to do something to interfere with the shorter path of their opponent, and there's only ever so many pieces which can interact with that shorter path. Meaning whatever path to victory is currently shortest short circuits the search for potential moves.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#28
That must mean they found some similarity metric for high-level chess which is very impressive. In chess one pawn moving one square can be the difference between a won and a lost position. But knowing that usually requires lots of calculation.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#29

There is rampant misunderstanding of some parts of this article; allow me to help :) The "no-search" chess engine uses search (Stockfish) in in two ways: 1. To score positions in the training data. This is only training data, no search is performed when actually playing. 2. To play moves when the position has many options with a 99% win rate. This is to prevent pathological behavior in already won positions, and is n…

In one sense, I can understand why they would choose to use Stockfish in mate-in-N positions. The fact that the model can't distinguish between mate in 5 and mate in 3 is an implementation detail. Since the vast majority of positions are not known to be wins or draws, it's still an interesting finding.

However, in reality all positions are actually wins (for black or white) or draws. One reason they gave for why stockfish is needed to finish the game is because their evaluation function is imperfect, which is also an notable result.

Re: Grandmaster-Level Chess Without Search

#30
post #26

Slightly off topic but am I the only one that approaches strategy games by making a "zeroth order approximation". Eg find the shortest path to victory under the (obviously faulty) assumption that my opponent does nothing and the board is unchanging except for my moves. Now find my opponents shortest path to victory under the same assumption. Then evaluate, if we both just ignore each other and try to bum rush the vic…

That's why white has a higher statistical win rate ya?
Post reply on HN