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Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

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Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#121

Post by peterisza »

callalex wrote: post #46
throwaway-blaze wrote: post #5

We need a term other than "recall" for minor software changes. The headline makes it sound like 2.2mm vehicles are going to be scheduling service appointments to fix this.

The easiest way to stay out of the news for recalls is to not sell a defective product. If these software recalls are so easy to fix, why isn’t Tesla fixing them before being forced to?

Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#122

Post by peterisza »

falcolas wrote: post #15
xeromal wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the articles don't make it super obvious in the headline that it's a software update.

The solution for many recalls these days is quite often a software update. No, what's notable is Tesla was forced to issue the update. This probably has consequences for Tesla beyond some bandwidth.

Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#123

Post by peterisza »

callalex wrote: post #52
xnx wrote: post #25

s/recall/free over-the-air update/

No, those aren’t the same thing. Tesla had to be forced to make their product safe by the regulator. If these updates are so easy and trivial in your mind, why doesn’t Tesla do them without being forced to?

Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#124

Post by bumby »

peterisza wrote: post #117
bumby wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Is software prevalent in manufactured products? Certainly. Are there standards that govern their designs? Of course.

By the way, Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

>Tesla wasn't actually being forced.

Can you explain? So by not "actually being forced" do you mean they found the issue themselves and brought it to Nitsa, or that they aren't making the change even though it would be easily done by an OTA update?

In terms of inconsequential non-compliance, that's a risk-based approach. And that's the correct approach IMO. The difference is that risk-based decisions should ideally be made before manufacturing because it shows you understood the requirement and risk before making the design decision. An "easy fix" after the fact isn't a good explanation for not understanding the requirements in the first place. I agree this should also apply to other manufacturers, but the video is 1) looking at other cars nearly a decade old and 2) using a digital cluster and not a touchscreen. From that standpoint, it muddles the comparison just to pat Tesla on the back. It's like comparing a 1980s carburetor non-compliance to a modern EFI that can be fixed with reprogrammed fuel mapping; the principle is there, but it just makes for a bad analogy.

Also: don't spam the thread with the same comment. You left this same copy/paste at least 7x. At best, it waters down the conversation and at worst, it comes across as shilling for Tesla and sets your otherwise decent point as fodder for shallow dismissal

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#125

Post by peterisza »

bumby wrote: post #124
peterisza wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, Tesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

> Tesla wasn't actually being forced. Can you explain? So by not "actually being forced" do you mean they found the issue themselves and brought it to Nitsa, or that they aren't making the change even though it would be easily done by an OTA update? In terms of inconsequential non-compliance, that's a risk-based approach. And that's the correct approach IMO. The difference is that risk-based decisions should ideally…

How old is the Taycan? Less than a decade.

How old is the Model S? More than a decade.

Which one managed to fix the icon problem? The Model S.

What did Porsche do about this "safety problem"? Nothing.

What did the media suggest? That Teslas are unsafe.

Why did I spam the comment section? Because I want more people to see an objective comparison instead of just the sensationalism of these articles.

Why am I shilling for Tesla? Because I think it is a good company.

Explain not being forced -- I think you understand. They could have filed that petition like all the others. Conclude that it doesn't pose risk and just not fix it. (Btw I think the old icons were better.)

Regarding the old vs. new tech analogy -- exactly! Tesla can (and does) remotely make their cars safer. And not just icons but crash safety as well (see the linked video). This is a huge safety benefit.

I think only Tesla and BYD have the level of vertical integration that makes it possible to improve the drive/crash characteristics over the air. Others rely too much on suppliers. Car manufacturers usually don't have access to the proprietary firmware running on parts that they get from suppliers.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#126

Post by peterisza »

peterisza wrote: post #125
bumby wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla wasn't actually being forced. Can you explain? So by not "actually being forced" do you mean they found the issue themselves and brought it to Nitsa, or that they aren't making the change even though it would be easily done by an OTA update? In terms of inconsequential non-compliance, that's a risk-based approach. And that's the correct approach IMO. The difference is that risk-based decisions should ideally…

How old is the Taycan? Less than a decade. How old is the Model S? More than a decade. Which one managed to fix the icon problem? The Model S. What did Porsche do about this "safety problem"? Nothing. What did the media suggest? That Teslas are unsafe. Why did I spam the comment section? Because I want more people to see an objective comparison instead of just the sensationalism of these articles. Why am I shilling f…

Regarding the media: this update is not newsworthy. Just like how you didn't know about Porsche's petition, you shouldn't know about this software update either.

If they wanted to write an article about it anyway, it should be about how Tesla managed to fix an issue no other automaker could fix.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#127

Post by peterisza »

Veserv wrote: post #63
gfosco wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's time to fight over words. The definition of recall no longer works, and I believe it is constantly used specifically negatively against Tesla. It has an effect on most people, who aren't savvy, who don't read beyond the headline. (i've not participated in these alleged battles before)

You are right. People seem to think a recall means “taking it in to get fixed”. But, a recall actually means the product has a dangerous defect that requires the manufacturer to promptly fix it for free otherwise the vehicle must be removed from the road. To better explain this we should use the term “dangerous defect” instead of “recall”. “Teslas contain another dangerous defect - affecting 2.2 million vehicles” doe…

Porsche Taycans still have this "danGeRouS dEfEct" today, and Porsche doesn't fix them. Where's the article?

Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Dangerous defect my ass...

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#128

Post by peterisza »

deely3 wrote: post #73
gfosco wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think a font being a few tenths of a millimeter off spec is a "dangerous defect" ? Let me guess... not a fan of Elon.

Yes. Unreadable font/icon is dangerous during driving.

Many Ford, GM, Kia/Hyundai and Porsche cars on the road today have this exact same "dangerous" issue. Instead of recalling the cars, they filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition so that they don't have to fix it.

Only Tesla could fix it. GM, Porsche, Kia/Hyundai and Ford couldn't. Their cars remain "dAngErOUs".

Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#129

Post by bumby »

peterisza wrote: post #125
bumby wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla wasn't actually being forced. Can you explain? So by not "actually being forced" do you mean they found the issue themselves and brought it to Nitsa, or that they aren't making the change even though it would be easily done by an OTA update? In terms of inconsequential non-compliance, that's a risk-based approach. And that's the correct approach IMO. The difference is that risk-based decisions should ideally…

How old is the Taycan? Less than a decade. How old is the Model S? More than a decade. Which one managed to fix the icon problem? The Model S. What did Porsche do about this "safety problem"? Nothing. What did the media suggest? That Teslas are unsafe. Why did I spam the comment section? Because I want more people to see an objective comparison instead of just the sensationalism of these articles. Why am I shilling f…

Why does this so often get highlighted so strongly as a "tesla vs. everybody" frame? It makes it look like you're tilting at windmills and missing the point.

I'm sorry, the first car brought up was the 2016 CTS-V. I didn't sit through the entire 20 min video. I don't think the Cadillac is a good comparison; I don't know enough about the others to comment.

Just because they decided to change the design rather than submit an non-compliance does not mean they weren't "forced." It means they were caught by a regulator, and did not fix the issue of their own accord. By your logic, I'm not "forced" to pay a speeding ticket because I pay the fine rather than fight it out in court. It could easily be that the fix is just easier than the process of risk-based compliance.

Again, please stop spanning comments. It makes the discussion worse and your point easier to dismiss as being the rantings of someone with an axe to grind instead of a rational argument.

Re: Tesla facing another massive recall – affecting 2.2 million vehicles

#130

Post by bumby »

peterisza wrote: post #126
peterisza wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is the Taycan? Less than a decade. How old is the Model S? More than a decade. Which one managed to fix the icon problem? The Model S. What did Porsche do about this "safety problem"? Nothing. What did the media suggest? That Teslas are unsafe. Why did I spam the comment section? Because I want more people to see an objective comparison instead of just the sensationalism of these articles. Why am I shilling f…

Regarding the media: this update is not newsworthy. Just like how you didn't know about Porsche's petition, you shouldn't know about this software update either. If they wanted to write an article about it anyway, it should be about how Tesla managed to fix an issue no other automaker could fix.

That's a different argument. I agree the news is sensationalist. The point is about process control, not "TSLA vs. Whomever" or sensationalist media. You're hijacking the discussion to shoehorn in your pet peeve rants. Please don't.
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