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Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

sfgate.com

421–430 of 750 posts

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#421
post #326

The fundamental problem of self-driving cars in cities is that they are expected to be 100% safe. They could be 10 times as safe as regular cars, but it wouldn't save them from headlines of "robot car kills an innocent person". And given how chaotic and unpredictable situation on the roads in a densely populated city without designated spaces for cyclists can be, 100% safety is impossible. Even if AI itself if perfec…

> The fundamental problem of self-driving cars in cities is that they are expected to be 100% safe.

I feel like that might be built atop two deeper concerns:

1. People worry that ways and times they are unsafe (separate from overall rates) will be unusual, less-predictable, or involve a novel risk-profile.

2. If it's autonomous, then accidents kinda weird-out our sense of blame and justice. When it fails, is it always the owner's fault and liability--even though the workings are impenetrable to the average person--or does the manufacturer have some blame? Do we each imagine that outcome would be fair if we were the one on the hook for our car doing something weird we didn't even intend?

Using regular cars as contrast, #1 is something predictable--or at least we delude ourselves into thinking it's predictable--and #2 has less disturbing ambiguity.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO these are a slightly fake stat. You're comparing to overall stats, that include the drunk, the high, the sleep deprived, and the crazy wild aggressive wreckless. If you compare to my mother driving, the injuries per mile are higher in autonomous. You can argue that I'm making an unfair distinction since those people exist, but I'd say the people driving under those conditions are commiting a crime and shouldn't b…

Unfortunately, we can't replicate your mother and put her behind the wheel of every vehicle in America. But we can crank out thousands of autonomous vehicles with thousands of identical copies of highly tuned safety algorithms.

If you had a new born to take home from the hospital and were 20 miles from home.. would you take an autonomous car or have you or a family member drive you home?

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone can't follow traffic laws, they shouldn't be on the road (regardless of mode of transportation)

So anyone who drives 1 mph over the speed limit shouldn’t be on the road? There are laws and there are norms. The overlap is never exact.

[deleted]

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing should surprise you about Shamann Walton. This is the man who refused to adhere to the City Hall's security procedures (on camera) and allegedly threatened the person who asked him to comply: https://sfstandard.com/2022/08/05/video-supervisor-shamann-w... He also bought a home outside San Francisco, with a mortgage condition that says it must be his principal residence. But if doesn't live in SF, how can he r…

I'm not surprised by the content of your links, but I can say I'm disappointed. After all, surprise and disappointment are different things.

> After all, surprise and disappointment are different things.

Hmmm... I think I gave it a honest try, but I'm still having trouble making that fit. I mean, both are when the unexpected occurs, one is just more-specific, where the unexpected leads to a negative emotional response.

Perhaps shocked versus disappointed?

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#425

I'm disappointed in all the folks immediately blaming the cyclist without further information, and I'm similarly disappointed in all the folks blaming Waymo for the same reason. But, unless they somehow have extra information we're not privy to, I'm much more disappointed in the S.F. Supervisor quoted in the article, Shamann Walton, for immediately going online to say "so much for safety." Us internet weenies are alw…

I’m happy that in the Netherlands it’s ALWAYS the car driver’s responsibility (she always pays).

It isn’t ALWAYS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability#Bicycle–motor...

“In a nutshell, this means that, in a collision between a car and a cyclist, the driver is deemed to be liable to pay damages and his insurer (n.b. motor vehicle insurance is mandatory in the Netherlands, while cyclist insurance is not) must pay the full damages, as long as 1) the collision was unintentional (i.e. neither party, motorist or cyclist, intentionally crashed into the other), and 2) the cyclist was not in error in some way. Even if a cyclist made an error, as long as the collision was still unintentional, the motorist's insurance must still pay half of the damages. This does not apply if the cyclist is under 14 years of age, in which case the motorist must pay full damages for unintentional collisions with minors. If it can be proved that a cyclist intended to collide with the car, then the cyclist must pay the damages (or their parents in the case of a minor.).”

For more detail, see https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/strict-liabili...

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we can't replicate your mother and put her behind the wheel of every vehicle in America. But we can crank out thousands of autonomous vehicles with thousands of identical copies of highly tuned safety algorithms.

If you had a new born to take home from the hospital and were 20 miles from home.. would you take an autonomous car or have you or a family member drive you home?

With emotions running high surrounding this newborn, me, or a family member, is likely to be stressed, under-slept, possibly drinking. Why wouldn't I want this hypothetical autonomous car to take us all home safely?

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#429
post #5

I looked up the cited street in street view- there are stop signs in all 4 directions. I look forward to the full accident report, but from the evidence available it sounds like the cyclist didn’t stop at the sign appropriately.

Cyclists are far from the only ones who don't stop at stop signs appropriately. Stand on a street corner sometime and count the cars that come to a full stop. I'd be shocked if you find more than 20% do. Which is all well and good as far as I'm concerned as long as people are paying attention and it doesn't cause an accident. But if cars that take no physical effort of the driver to get moving again aren't expected t…

The more important thing is yielding. I've very rarely seen a car fail to yield at a stop sign, but people on bikes or e-scooters do it all the time. They even hit peds sometimes.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#430
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest, anyone making any type of conclusion based off the information in the article is just giving in to their biases. None of us know enough to actually have any serious opinion on this specific collision.

I'm drawing the conclusion that this is a non-issue, or would be if autonomous vehicles hadn't got to be so political over the last year in San Fransisco. There are many people out for blood, they want a follow-up to the Cruise scandal. One fact of the matter is that the cyclist wasn't seriously hurt, and Waymo has had many minor contact events in its 10 million+ miles of driving on public roads. We're hearing about…

> We're hearing about this event because politics.

I think reporting on integrating autonomous driving into roads is a news worthy subject even outside of the agenda of a particular publisher. The good things are reported for autonomous driving as well. I don't live in SF but know that Waymo and Cruise both had fully autonomous vehicles in SF.

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