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Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

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Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've seen all of those walkable cities, green cities, etc... For the most part, I think that staying away from driving is a good idea. If we could have cities planned out so that anything would just be a few minutes walk away, that would solve so many problems. A car-independent society would have many improvements. Even for medium distance travel, we could have trains and such.

What you're describing is exactly how a large part of Japanese society lives today. It's one of the main reasons I moved here. I don't need a car, I walk or cycle or take trains wherever I need to go, including to other cities. Americans really don't want to live in this kind of society. They don't like walking that much, and they like the isolation and feeling of superiority they get by driving around in an expensiv…

> Americans really don't want to live in this kind of society.

What's crazy is I don't think this is true. I think Americans think they want a car-centric society, and we've structured so much of society to reduce our freedom to chose the alternative.

Where do Americans like to vacation? Walkable places. What cities and suburbs are regularly the most expensive and desirable in their area? Walkable ones. We built malls and commercial developments that provide walkability within a suburb. Literal Disney's fantasy main-street is just modeled on the walkable core of a suburb. Americans will say that cars give them freedom to go anywhere, then complain all the good places don't have enough parking.

Americans will tell you that college is the best time of their life, and it's largely because everyone was within walking distance to their social life, their job (classes), and their home. They eschew the commitment of vehicles, and they live close to others, and with less stuff.

Anyways, I guess I'm jealous you get to live in Japan, because I totally wish that America could invest in our transit like Japan has.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the cyclist didn’t stop at the intersection or follow the rules of right of way.

I am usually one to bash cyclists for not following the rules, but I believe it's actually legal for them to do this at stop signs. They only have to slow down and check for crossing traffic before going through.

> They only have to slow down and check for crossing traffic before going through.

As another poster said, this is not true, but more importantly…

Some cyclists treat the “yield at stop sign” concept as “yield to me the cyclist, as I will not slow down unless I have to, and I will be unhappy about that”.

I’ve been cursed out, flipped off, and given the evil eye when I pulled out from a stop sign and a cyclist that was far up the road when I looked had to hard brake because they weren’t even slowing down.

I’m all for cyclists rights. I was a bicycle messenger one summer, and my replacement was killed in an accident. Being a cyclist can be dangerous and scary, but some cyclists just act like entitled shitheads. Besides being a problem for all folks on the road, they also give cyclists a bad rep.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"Embarrassing" is a strange way of saying "potentially deadly" (for example, https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-cycl... ).

> The felony conviction was the first of its kind in the nation involving a bicyclist.

The list of things that have killed one person in the last several hundred years is long. Everything is potentially deadly by that standard.

Here's a case mentioned in Law's Order:

"The plaintiff was about 14 years of age, and the defendant about 11 years of age. On the 20th day of February, 1889, they were sitting opposite to each other across an aisle in the high school of the village of Waukesha. The defendant reached across the aisle with his foot, and hit with his toe the shin of the right leg of the plaintiff. The touch was slight. ... In a few moments he felt a violent pain in that place, which caused him to cry out loudly. ... He will never recover the use of his limb."

(Vosburg v Putney, 80 Wis. 523, 50 N.W. 403 (1891))

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the description is correct then the cyclist was going into the space that they could see in front of them, unlike the Waymo. Someone else said that stop signs are legally equivalent to yield signs for bicycles in California. They probably couldn't see the Waymo because it was occluded by the truck, so how could they yield to it. This is why straight going traffic always has the right of way if the roads are simila…

>Someone else said that stop signs are legally equivalent to yield signs for bicycles in California. California does not have the "Idaho Stop". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop

Presumably, Idaho does have the "Idaho stop", so driverless cars should be designed with that in mind, and operate as conservatively as possible to avoid crashes caused by other drivers or cyclists not perfectly obeying the rules.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#266
post #11

So the scenario (as described by waymo, surely with some spin): "Driving through a 4 way intersection, while a large truck is also going through the intersection. As you go through, a biker quickly passes behind the truck with minimal time to react once in sightlines." A human driver would take significantly longer to react, and could be deadly. Waymo managed to hit the breaks before the collision, potentially leadin…

Let's wait until there's a neutral 3rd-party description. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35844915/ntsb-letter-nhts...

We shouldn't have to wait and listen to the spin from both sites. The video should be released immediately. What's Waymo's excuse?

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#267
post #252

I'm disappointed in all the folks immediately blaming the cyclist without further information, and I'm similarly disappointed in all the folks blaming Waymo for the same reason. But, unless they somehow have extra information we're not privy to, I'm much more disappointed in the S.F. Supervisor quoted in the article, Shamann Walton, for immediately going online to say "so much for safety." Us internet weenies are alw…

[flagged]

> You must not live in SF if this is unexpected for you.

OP didn't say surprised, they said disappointed. For example: I am not surprised that I burn my food because I left it in the oven too long, but I am disappointed that my food is ruined. Be careful not to conflate the two and impose beliefs on another person that they may or may not have. If you're talking politicians, I would say that such notions (pinning fictitious ideals to a person or group) are common tactics and this seems explicitly what you are upset about (as I think many are). So let's not engage in similar behavior, it only enables those tactics.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#268
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm far less interested in the footage than I am the telemetry [...] how long was it from detection to action It sounds like you're making a deeply unreasonable assumption that no human could have detected or anticipated the cyclist faster than the computer did. Given the current state of the art, those times are frequently not the same, and the difference cannot be answered without seeing the human-consumable vide…

I'm assuming nothing. I'm simply posing a question, not answering it. It's your post that is nonsense, as it appears you've read about half of what I wrote before you replied.

Perhaps it's not what you intended in your mind, but it's what you happened to type out in ASCII.

In this quote, you are asserting that something is true::

> What was the state of the gas and brake, what was the steering angle, how long was it from detection to action. Those things concretely answer the question of "would a human have done better or worse in this situation?"

Unfortunately it is not true: "Those things" you just identified in "the telemetry" can not "concretely answer" the question of "would a human have done better."

In particular, that is because "done better" includes detecting the obstacle or risk sooner--not merely time between detection and braking. To answer that, the inputs that would have been available to a human must be scrutinized by other humans, which means the video is important.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we do know is that this incident will be analyzed with the level of attention we would give to a plane crash. If there was any way the incident could have been avoided, the engineers will probably figure it out. It’s likely that software will be updated to implement a fix as well, and this type of accident will become much less likely across Waymo’s entire fleet. That seems like a really good result.

Journalists swarm all over it. Waymo engineers will take their learnings. But honest question: is there an official, scrutinous authority also coming into this that would be able to hold Waymo to account? Maybe like the NTSB?

The thing is, human drivers do not and will never have such scrutiny. In this case, there is some hope that it will happen before these cars are widely deployed, even if said authority is the court of public opinion.

Re: Cyclist hit by driverless Waymo car in San Francisco, police say

#270
post #228
post #5

I looked up the cited street in street view- there are stop signs in all 4 directions. I look forward to the full accident report, but from the evidence available it sounds like the cyclist didn’t stop at the sign appropriately.

Looking at the intersection [1], what a badly designed mess it is! You have 2 bike lanes disappearing into the intersection without any sort of protection. Cars can be parked right up to the ped crossings, potentially obscuring what is happening. Looks like a death trap to me. At a minimum, raising the crossings so that cars have to slow down, and having no parking zones in front the crossings would improve the situa…

> Cars can be parked right up to the ped crossings, potentially obscuring what is happening. Looks like a death trap to me.

California recently made it illegal to park within 20 feet of a crosswalk:

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-highlights-...

SF hasn't started enforcing the law yet, and I suspect that 99% of drivers don't know about the law.

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