I visited one of those sites, https://sevillatimes.com/ , and absolutely none of the articles posted there talk about the city, not even about the country where the city is in. So nobody would think that website is a local news website. Also this article offers little to no proof that the Chinese government is behind these sites. They look more like a network of crypto spam. https://sevillatimes.com/category/presione…
I doubt if lots of websites all saying "[Chinese scientist who made allegations about Covid] is a complete rumor maker" are crypto spam. The Chinese government seems like a plausible patron.
Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
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Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#62Why are we putting up with it? We really need a solution. At this point, I'd love a walled garden where I know I'd get quality information. It doesn't have to be perfect, but not misinformation or disinformation. I'd love a search engine that restricted itself to quality sources.
Even from a purely immediate self-interest perspective, why are all these intelligent people accepting such a trash product?
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#63The Internet is an absolute disaster; disinformation campaigns are everywhere, drowning people, with endless horrible consequences. Freedom, peace, prosperity, democracy, human rights, health, etc. are all at risk. Why are we putting up with it? We really need a solution. At this point, I'd love a walled garden where I know I'd get quality information. It doesn't have to be perfect, but not misinformation or disinfor…
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
The target audience seems to be Koreans who want to market their [whatever] in e.g. France, but neither know French nor anything at all about France. I found the link where you can buy access to the EiffelPost site you mentioned here: https://kmong.com/gig/399972 I assume you didn't check out the link earlier. Basically it's some sort of a Korean craigslist/ebay type site. The site itself is complete legit - Amazon d…
Alright. So the CCP is even lazier and doesn't bother with creating their own sites, but buys access to these branded localized sites, and posts their content that way. Or "Excelsior Partners" is just another CCP front, and those kmong listings are a scam in itself. Otherwise, how would you explain 24 pages of CGTN propaganda? In either case, it's a clear link to the CCP. This is no different to what they do on socia…
If you want to see this as some sort of a state influence operation, you run into a million issues. The sites are poorly done (template boilerplate is even left up in many places!) and no native would likely consider them "real", there has been exactly 0 effort to advertise or share the sites, the sites seem to be regularly taken down which ruins ranking/viral possibilities, what "propaganda" that does exist on the sites has to be actively searched for, the sites seemingly allow anybody to publish on them, the sites are loaded with stuff that's going to push people away like shady crypto spam (and I say that as a huge fan of crypto!), so forth and so on.
Especially for things like this, I think Occam's Razor is quite sharp.
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#65So I decided to take the really sophisticated step of doing a "link:www.milanomodaweekly.com" search on Google. It turned up this [1] page, and pretty much only that page. But that seems to explain what this probably is. This looks like an amateur hour scam operation. Somebody sets up some sites that look vaguely passable (targeted at an audience who does not even speak the language on the site), auto-populates them…
Did you miss the part in the article where these sites contain blatant pro-China propaganda, and ad hominem attacks on CCP political dissidents? I did the same cursory look as you. Go to https://www[.]eiffelpost[.]com/?s=china with a VPN. It shows 24 pages of CGTN greatest hits. How you can interpret this to be anything other than a CCP psyop is beyond me. It's disappointing to see this kind of dismissal on a forum o…
What does the irrelevant adjective “blatant” have to do with anything? And why is “ad hominem” significant when 95% of politics is about technically fallacious argumentation such as that?
Oh, a 10KUSD FB ad campaign bought by Kremlin and targeted at the US population? Obvious psyop, yes. Also completely irrelevant noise in the scheme of things, just like this apparent “amateur hour” operation.
It’s about having an appropriate response to “bad things”. There is no need to freak out about a few ants in the backyard.
> It's disappointing to see this kind of dismissal on a forum of highly educated people.
Of course. As “highly educated people” we are supposed to circle the wagons and irrationally blow apparent low-effort (again according to the OP) psyops out of proportion because it’s an enemy regime. That’s after all the primary ideological role of the “highly educated people” (loose source: Chomsky).
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is no different from the majority of US history. Partisan/slanted news outlets have been a thing in the US going back to the Revolution, on both sides of the aisle. It's often a reason why larger cities had multiple papers. One for each side.
Well, one for each side that can field a media organization. :D
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#67Nothing new, sadly. Before the 2016 and 2020 election, fake news farms in Macedonia made the rounds [1] - these were in it for the money, and in 2015 there were reports about Russian propaganda farms targeting Serbia and the rest of Europe [2]. [1] https://money.cnn.com/interactive/media/the-macedonia-story/ [2] https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/russische-trollf...
Yes, back before You-Know-Who neutralized the phrase "fake news" by turning it into a generic insult to disparage legitimate news organizations, the big story was all these actual fake newspapers popping up, made to look legitimate, but actually pumping out nonsense and political propaganda instead. Suddenly the phenomenon just stopped getting reported on, and we now mostly forget that these fake sites even exist.
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Alright. So the CCP is even lazier and doesn't bother with creating their own sites, but buys access to these branded localized sites, and posts their content that way. Or "Excelsior Partners" is just another CCP front, and those kmong listings are a scam in itself. Otherwise, how would you explain 24 pages of CGTN propaganda? In either case, it's a clear link to the CCP. This is no different to what they do on socia…
The same way I'd explain all the other stuff. It's just lots of filler to try to make the site look, from the scammer's perspective, legit. And you have to keep in mind this issue of perspectives. What you see as propaganda, is what somebody else would just see as the equivalent as a stream from e.g. Reuters. And the scammer is probably Chinese or Korean. Since the target victims are Korean, he probably wouldn't want…
And they just happen to have mostly political propaganda from CGTN, a CCP mouthpiece? If the intent was only to scam, there are thousands of ways of doing that with better results, without involving propaganda.
> What you see as propaganda, is what somebody else would just see as the equivalent as a stream from e.g. Reuters.
C'mon. If you search for "china" on any of these sites you'll only see pro-China narratives, promoting the One China policy, etc. Western media has its own agenda, sure, but this type of blatant propaganda is only found on fringe publications.
> If you want to see this as some sort of a state influence operation, you run into a million issues.
State run psyops don't need to be sophisticated. Their only goal is to flood the web with their narratives, and lower the signal to noise ratio, so that when people search for specific topics, theirs will hopefully come up. For every attempt that does this right, there are millions more that do a half-assed job at it.
> Especially for things like this, I think Occam's Razor is quite sharp.
Precisely. The CCP runs a well-oiled machine built to pump out disinformation via every public channel available. It takes them no effort to create sites like these, and all steps of the process are likely fully automated. I find the simplest explanation to be that this is just another variant of this, rather than a scam operation that builds dozens of sites with pages upon pages of content just to get people to click on some links, or whatever type of scam this might be. If it quacks like a duck...
I don't think we'll know for sure either way, or convince each other, but cheers for the discussion.
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#69The Internet is an absolute disaster; disinformation campaigns are everywhere, drowning people, with endless horrible consequences. Freedom, peace, prosperity, democracy, human rights, health, etc. are all at risk. Why are we putting up with it? We really need a solution. At this point, I'd love a walled garden where I know I'd get quality information. It doesn't have to be perfect, but not misinformation or disinfor…
Isn't this the same as asking for a source of information that is always correct? Has that ever actually existed in any form?
What about lying by omission?
It seems like we're all freaking out about something that has always been true: people lie, say half-truths, distort facts. It's pretty hard to convey only information that is 100% provably true and also tells a complete picture.
Re: Paperwall: Chinese websites posing as local news outlets target global audiences
#70Seeing the screenshot of the headlines, "mimic" (HN title) is a different to "posing as" (article title). If I can extrapolate from 3 headlines screenshot there, the sites have generic boring looks (maybe they're Wordpress sites), but they pose to be a news site for Sevilla, Rome, or Milan. Whereas when "mimicking", I would expect them to be copying the design of well-known news sites (I've seen fake CNN-looking site…
I'm not the submitter, but there is a length limit on post titles. I've run into this before with articles whose titles exceed that limit, and I've had to "edit" the titles to fit. I imagine the submitter had the same issue, and didn't catch the different connotation of "mimic" vs "posing as", which does seem to change the meaning some. Dang: Do you think you could raise the length limit by 50 characters or so? Most…