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What happened with the Web Monetization API?

chriscoyier.net

251–260 of 271 posts

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I don't want a bunch of small operators independently moderating, or hope for a bug free implementation of a smart contract. The whole point is regulatory instead of technical protection. I don't want code to supercede the laws that exist to protect us. I especially don't want my finances under the care of the kinds of companies and opportunistic individuals normally drawn to crypto. One mistake and everything i…

> One mistake and everything is gone. What do you mean? You could lose 1 transaction if the merchant turns out to be a scammer and there was no escrow involved, same as cash.

"Same as cash" is part of the problem here. Credit cards offer way more protection. I don't want to give cash-equivalent to somebody I've never done business with, unless it's a physical good I can immediately examine in person and take possession of.

But really I meant more user error, like getting phished or hacked out of a wallet, a mistake in coding up a smart contract, a mistake in choosing which third-party moderator or online exchange to trust, etc. Every step of the way is fraught with risk. The same crypto opportunities that opportunists get rich on seem to be built on other people's misfortunes. It's a zero-sum game.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#252
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not saying anything I don't already know, you're just changing the topic. My point is that when you said, "In the US the receiver gets unbanked without warning or explanation and permanently loses the ability to accept money through any service via systems like MATCH", that's flat wrong in the most prominent cases, and in less-prominent cases where deplatforming has been applied it hasn't been effective. It's…

The regime doesn’t want people saying or thinking things they aren’t being currently told to say and think. The regime is technically not allowed to use the legal system directly to punish people for this quasi-crime but is very happy to ruin everything else in same pursuit. So why should a protocol for p2p financial transactions the regime doesn’t control be allowed to exist?

Who said anything about p2p? Crypto is poorly-suited for microtransactions due to its inefficiency.

"The regime" has nothing to do with it; "the regime" has already effectively absorbed cryptocurrency. Coinbase is listed on NASDAQ, and all the major cryptocurrencies have zero privacy, allowing the powers that be to see everything that happens on the public ledgers.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core issues with the Web Monetization API is that all the things you mentioned get dangerously close to SAP and Salesforce waters, and there's a reason these systems are the definition of bloated legacy accounting tech.

It's not bloat when you "need" those features (read: BIG Company)

Our problem as a < 200 person non-profit is that our teams are being convinced that we _do_ need these systems, and in that scenario it is bloat. We keep telling ourselves that we need to "grow into" SalesForce and all its ancillaries that we're paying outrageous sums for. And that growth looks so much like a balloon. We have more and more SaaS stuff to support but the same number of people to do it. And we think we're getting ahead.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#254
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any promising avenues towards microtransactions that gets around small card transactions getting a hefty fee This is anathema here in the US but the rest of the world typically does not use credit cards as the default payment method.

Americans use credit cards as the default payment method? Why?

I use it because if I used a debit card and it gets compromised then I lose whatever's in my bank account. Maybe I can get it back if I can prove it's fraud?

If I use a credit card and it gets compromised then my cash is still secure. If I have to fight a credit card company for 6 months to get the payments reversed I still have cash to live off of. If I don't win then hell I don't pay. Maybe I go to collections and credit gets dinged but my real assets are still mine.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#255
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't send $0.01 instantly and anonymously with bank rails. The solution is to use a crypto exchange on crypto rails - just not a regular crypto wallet (you could, but perhaps not very user friendly)

Isn't that just turning the exchanges into unregulated banks?

Many exchanges are regulated, but maybe not as banks. But yes you're trusting that exchange with your money. If used for web-micropayments it shouldn't be much of an issue though.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#256
post #241

A friend of mine in Vietnam needed some quick cash to go home for Tet holiday and asked me for help in paying for their travel costs and some spending money. Nothing nefarious, just a few hundred USD. I'm happy to help them. I went to a popular VN crypto website, put in their name and bank account number and how much I wanted to send them (and on what crypto network and token, as they support a bunch of them). The si…

I love crypto. I even built an SDK to make crypto payment easy [0] However, KYC is there for a reason. Personally, I don't touch any crypto on/offramp service without proper KYC [0] https://1pay.network

> However, KYC is there for a reason.

You don't go on to explain that reason though, so let me explain it for anyone reading this.

The definition of KYC from my quick google search is:

"Know Your Customer (KYC) standards are designed to protect financial institutions against fraud, corruption, money laundering and terrorist financing."

Key words: "Protect financial institutions"

In other words, they don't protect the people using the system.

In this case, it is two friends a world apart who want to simply share some funds with each other. There is no institution here other than the use of fiat money on the receiving end (my friends bank account).

I would have preferred to just use crypto the whole way, but my friend doesn't know anything about it and I didn't want to bother them since they were so upset about not being able to be with their family during Tet.

So, I found a middleman that was willing to take my crypto and convert it to local currency, with very little effort or cost. In my eyes, there is absolutely nothing ethically wrong with what I did. Transactions like this do not and should not require government intervention. The fact that we've been so brainwashed to believe that they do, is just wrong.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#257
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love crypto. I even built an SDK to make crypto payment easy [0] However, KYC is there for a reason. Personally, I don't touch any crypto on/offramp service without proper KYC [0] https://1pay.network

> However, KYC is there for a reason. You don't go on to explain that reason though, so let me explain it for anyone reading this. The definition of KYC from my quick google search is: "Know Your Customer (KYC) standards are designed to protect financial institutions against fraud, corruption, money laundering and terrorist financing." Key words: "Protect financial institutions" In other words, they don't protect the…

Should or should not is besides the point. If you're interacting with the US financial system in any way, it's a requirement from that government. I can believe anything I want about how cannabis should be legal, my personal beliefs about that don't change the fact that I could be arrested for having some.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, KYC is there for a reason. You don't go on to explain that reason though, so let me explain it for anyone reading this. The definition of KYC from my quick google search is: "Know Your Customer (KYC) standards are designed to protect financial institutions against fraud, corruption, money laundering and terrorist financing." Key words: "Protect financial institutions" In other words, they don't protect the…

Should or should not is besides the point. If you're interacting with the US financial system in any way, it's a requirement from that government. I can believe anything I want about how cannabis should be legal, my personal beliefs about that don't change the fact that I could be arrested for having some.

In this case, I am not interacting with the US financial system. I am sending my perfectly legal beanie babies to Vietnam.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#259
post #111
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why it has to be lightweight. The thing that would drive prices down and keep ads at bay is competition. Since setting up a new streaming service is difficult-bordering-on-impossible, the players are protected from competition and can squeeze their customers. In other markets, if you had a lightweight payment system that isn't just a component of a walled garden (ala Medium or YouTube), you could see actual co…

Sorry, slightly tangential, but haven't we seen streaming services get progressively worse as more competition has entered the space? Netflix was great when they were pretty much the only place in town; now it's a fragmented disaster of services that have to squeeze harder and harder to keep things viable.

Well, but that's due to a lot of problems specific to the media landscape. Netflix started as an afterthought, the big media companies viewed it as a sideshow or as a stopgap measure while they made other plans, so there was a honeymoon phase where it was cheap and had a ton of media.

Most new entrants to the market are themselves media companies, so with each one the media landscape gets fractured. They're able to leverage popular content (over which they have a monopoly) to lure customers and raise prices. There's not many of them, and the barrier of entry is almost impossibly high (step 1: develop a 50-year back catalog of beloved films & franchises...), so the market is insular.

Compare with music, where there's a ton of smaller labels, and the barrier of entry is much lower. Streaming companies compete mostly on price, interface & experience.

I think the problem is kinda inherent in the market, and Netflix was just an anomaly because it caught the media companies flat-footed. You would need openness and competition on a much more fundamental level to solve streaming video media.

In the meantime, simple and open web payments could solve for music, podcasts, prose, reporting, art, etc. And hey, maybe somewhere in the process you could see the birth of micro-studios.

Re: What happened with the Web Monetization API?

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That white paper was written when? 2008, give or take a couple years? "Speed," as we refer to it, is relative to the age. In 2008, the threshold for terms like "fast" was much lower than it is today.

Where are you getting "speed is relative to age" from? As far as I'm aware 100mph in 2008 is the same as 100mph today, and 10 minutes hasn't changed either. The bitcoin white paper clearly describes the goal as a digital cash with and low fee transactions without the used of a trusted third party. We have none of those today in bitcoin.

False equivalence. Cars are much older technology than blockchain. In 1908, cars were much slower than they are today. In 1808, horse carriages were much slower. You get the point. The speed at which I expect changes to process differs over time. In some future time, we may all be in self-driving cars that are able to safely exceed 200MPH and we'll think back to our 45MPH street speed limits and laugh. Just like how in 2008, the typical home network had a 5Mbps uplink to the internet, and today it's (depending on the source) at least 135Mbps, with the availability of >1Gbps depending on your ISP and region.

I was using the term "speed" as a concept, and you were using it as a constant. I referred to "speed" as "fast" or "slow." Which is to say, the subjective judgement on what is fast. Which is a decent way to default to judging speed unless the white paper specifies a threshold of transactions per second to be considered "fast." You thought of speed as a constant unit of measurement for speed, which makes no sense unless they have a target for their transactions per second. The problem with that is, the number of transactions per second that a payment solution needs to process is pretty much only going to increase over time, and thus, the goal to be considered "fast" does actually change over time. You're just potentially thinking in too short of a time range to see much drift in that subjective judgement.

I think you're mistaking my intention too. My intention is to say that Bitcoin's perceived speed with handling transactions then, is perhaps slow by today's standards. The goal you gave:

> digital cash with and low fee transactions without the used of a trusted third party.

is at least 2/3rd of the way complete. You have digital cash, with high transaction fees, and no trusted third party. The solution that blockchain designers/engineers seem to have come up with is referred to as "layer 2 rollups" where a bunch of transactions are processed quickly by a trusted third party, bundled together, and then enforced in one big transaction on the actual network in intervals. This promises to be faster, and possibly cost less in transaction fees, but then under-delivers on the third goal of not using a trusted third party. But it is apparently the best way that blockchain engineers have thought up to compete with the transaction processing speed of entities like VISA, at least today. While it's not ideal to trust that third party, presumably you have a choice to opt in or out of the layer 2 network, and enforce your transaction on the slower, more traditional blockchain layer 1. And at least with the layer 2 network, it eventually gets trued up on the blockchain with each of the rollup intervals. It's maybe up for an argument on whether trusting the layer 2 third party is better than, or the same as, trusting VISA. I would potentially argue that it's better, with the caveat of admitting that I am not a blockchain expert. I just potentially know more than the average crypto enthusiast that trades BTC and Doge on institutions like Coinbase.

I will note that the goal you gave said absolutely nothing about speed though.

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