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Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

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Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#141

Post by hilbert42 »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #99
mikej1000 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're a problem in universities too. I'm sure I've seen research that suggests students in lectures who take notes on paper get better grades that students who use laptops in lectures.

> I'm sure I've seen research that suggests students in lectures who take notes on paper get better grades that students who use laptops in lectures. Honestly, I hated taking notes in lectures (and considered the necessity for it to be a distraction from paying full attention). On the other hand, there were these students who live-LaTeXed math lectures on their laptops ...

"On the other hand, there were these students who live-LaTeXed math lectures on their laptops..."

I'd suggest very few could actually do that successfully. First, they'd have to be truly fluent touch typists—that is being able to keep their eyes fully focused on the lecturer and being fully fluent in LaTeX.

And I'd suggest that's a very tall order if say the lecture was on math or physics—say on a topic such as the Navier–Stokes equations. Not only would their eyes be focused on the lecturer and what he/she's writing on the blackboard but they'd have to be sufficiently fluent in LaTeX math to enter rows of partial differential equations on-the-fly and be completely wordperfect about it.

No doubt there will be a few exceptional people who can perform such a feat but I'd bet the number would be miniscule.

Edit: when I was taking lecture notes I'd often resort to transcribing lectures from recordings to get the stuff that I missed or that wasn't clear at the time of the lecture. Unfortunately, back then there were very few video recordings of lectures which meant that transcribing math, physics etc. was essentially out of the question.

There were however audio cassette recording of subjects where visuals were less important such as philosophy. Even with these subjects I found that transcribing the audio into coherent notes was timeconsuming and difficult and often it required me to replay sections of the tape over and over. This was worthwhile as it drove the lectures home but it was damn hard work.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#142

Post by jongjong »

liveoneggs wrote: post #126
jongjong wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A school system is very complex. But does it need to be? School private networks seem unnecessary, especially nowadays when most apps are cloud-based and don't require installation. Many modern routers support domain blacklists to prevent access to inappropriate content. What else is needed?

The entire discussion is about how cloud apps are illegal for children because of GDPR

GDPR is dumb. All government regulations are dumb.

The only regulation that works is self-regulation. The way to ensure that companies self-regulate is by punishing them (directors and shareholders) harshly whenever they cause harm or damage.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#143

Post by sotix »

throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

When I was in high school, I got a special exemption to be allowed to use a laptop to take notes because my hand would cramp trying to jot down everything the teacher wanted us to. Once I was at university, everybody was using a laptop. They were incredibly distracting.

I now know that I never needed one. If a teacher uses the Socratic method, I learn very effectively as long as the dialogue is engaging. Note taking slows me down and doesn’t allow to me fully process what has been said. I always had to spend a large amount of time reviewing the notes after class and realized how much didn’t soak in when I was taking them.

The issue was, far too many teachers would add one random bit of trivia into a quick sentence they said and use that as a question on the next exam. Even if that bit of knowledge wasn’t in the related books or could be naturally deduced by understanding the topic.

The best teachers I had didn’t require me to use laptops. I realize that now that I am attending Greek school as an adult and only use a small notepad to take quick notes on something to follow up with later like vocab to add to Anki. A class of 12 engaged in dialogue is far more effective for myself.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#144

Post by xethos »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #107
liveoneggs wrote: post #103

This article advocates for Linux (Chromebook is already Linux) on refurbished hardware (a random mix of old laptops in a large-scale deployment lol) and a laundry list of other "technology solutions" which would be, obviously, impossible for a school system to smoothly maintain or even deploy. I'm not sure privacydad has ever deployed or maintained an IT department. A school system is very complex. For what they offe…

>This article advocates for Linux (Chromebook is already Linux) Because Chromebook is Linux kernel + Google proprietary ecosystem & spyware. When advocates say Linux they just mean the FOSS distros of Linux + FOSS software.

When advocates say Linux they unironically (and sometimes unknowingly) mean GNU+Linux.

This typically means a standard image the school can manage that has reasonable device management, with a company they can pay, and that their in-house IT can contact for support when the unexpected, unforseeable issues happen.

I have yet to hear one suggest ChromeOS or any Android tablet; those run the Linux kernel, but don't (AFAIK) use nearly any of the GNU software.

And I kind of get it. We've all seen the copy-pasta, and this division took on a life as a joke about a crazy person that takes things too far. But most of the people that make that joke seem to have forgotten that RMS frequently starts off looking crazy, but is nearly always vindicated. Sometimes it's five years, sometimes it's twenty. But it happens more often that not.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#145

Post by ben_w »

op00to wrote: post #87
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. A huge distraction. Notice the adjective, indicating magnitude. Where did they say laptops introduced the concept of distraction to school?

Have you ever heard of the term sarcasm? Maybe it was left out of the books you read in school.

Sarcasm is use of language, potentially caustic, potentially ironic or humorous, to mock someone or something, e.g. if I were to respond to your comment with "What a witty and clever response that totally adds value to the conversation".

What you did was reiterate the same point that @caldarons had already made themselves in the paragraph immediately following the one you are now quoting.

Also, it's hypocritical to mock @caldarons for your failure to understand what they wrote, while also blaming the people who reply to you for not understanding what you write.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#146

Post by hilbert42 »

jon-wood wrote: post #139
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schools + laptops Are there any believable success story for this from involved people (= students+teachers+parents)?

Hi. I had fairly severe dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school, I could read fine, but handwriting in particular was hideously slow, to the point where I wasn't able to actually learn much because I was spending all my time laboriously writing things out. Once my parents persuaded the school to let me use an electronic word processor (I hesitate to call it a laptop by modern standards) for anything th…

"...dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school,"

"...for anything that involved writing it made the world of difference."

No doubt what you say is true but it's odd as research has shown that using a keyboard requires additional cognition and thus usually more is learned when taking handwritten notes specifically because it's less mentally taxing. If I recall there was research to this effect on an HN story in the last week or so.

It would be interesting to know why the opposite seems to be so with you.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#149

Post by liveoneggs »

hilbert42 wrote: post #146
jon-wood wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi. I had fairly severe dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school, I could read fine, but handwriting in particular was hideously slow, to the point where I wasn't able to actually learn much because I was spending all my time laboriously writing things out. Once my parents persuaded the school to let me use an electronic word processor (I hesitate to call it a laptop by modern standards) for anything th…

"...dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school," "...for anything that involved writing it made the world of difference." No doubt what you say is true but it's odd as research has shown that using a keyboard requires additional cognition and thus usually more is learned when taking handwritten notes specifically because it's less mentally taxing. If I recall there was research to this effect on an HN sto…

keyboarding is a common accommodation for dysgraphia

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#150

Post by thunky »

caldarons wrote: post #21
throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

As someone who went to a high school (Italy) where in the first two years each student had a laptop they could use in the classroom, I agree that having a computer per student is a bad idea. In my experience, what ended up happening was that pupils who already knew their way around a computer didn't really get any extra benefit from using cmputers in the classroom and those who didn't like using computers hated it ev…

If a kid can play video games in school all day and still make grades, then there is something wrong with the school, not the student.
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