Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark • Hacker News Board

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#91

Post by aleph_minus_one » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:00 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #65

caldarons wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who went to a high school (Italy) where in the first two years each student had a laptop they could use in the classroom, I agree that having a computer per student is a bad idea. In my experience, what ended up happening was that pupils who already knew their way around a computer didn't really get any extra benefit from using cmputers in the classroom and those who didn't like using computers hated it ev…

Would the issue be resolved by a resiliant way to lock all devices into a particular mode? i.e. "Word processing only" "specific website(s) only" etc I'm aware that actually implementing this in a fool-proof way is non-trivial - but would it in theory solve the issue and allow the benefits of tech? I can't imagine taking notes by hand any more.

> Would the issue be resolved by a resiliant way to lock all devices into a particular mode?

In my experience, pupils are insanely creative in getting around such restrictions: pupils have a lot of time, and in each grade there is this one guy (nearly always male) who combines being knowledgeable in computer topics, and having subversive traits (if not in the grade, there exists someone who has a big brother with these traits who will have a lot of fun helping his little brother to destroy the digital cage). Once a way is found, in a few days it has spread around the schoolyward.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#92

Post by op00to » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:00 PM UTC

blackhaz wrote: post #76

op00to wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this matters in real life.

Oh no, it does matter a lot. Would you want to grow up in a cartoon world with Google execs owning all they keys to your reality? Believe me, it matters for Google and other big tech who create this layer of abstraction between the reality and their customers. Because it matters for their bottom line. Initially the motive may have been totally benign, like making things easier. But the fact that they are profit-orien…

My life is already owned by banks, insurance companies, my children, my spouse. What’s one more overlord?

Frankly knowing folks who work at Google, I do not have a lot of confidence that they will succeed at much of anything but selling ads and making money.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#93

Post by op00to » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:01 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #59

op00to wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing that laptops were the thing that introduced distraction to pupils in school. Not paper football. Not whispering. Not passing notes. Not staring out the window. Not sleeping. Not spending too much time in the bathroom.

I recall of epic battles with pens turned into blowguns. Making lessons interesting is a lost art, and uninterested pupils will always find a way to distract themselves with what they have at hand, laptops or not.

Thank you for picking up on my point instead of assuming a straw man argument!

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#94

Post by ChrisArchitect » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:03 PM UTC

Is there a link somewhere to a webpage of the official Danish report or ruling? Press release?

Why is this all reports via ppl in LinkedIn?

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#95

Post by aleph_minus_one » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:04 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #85

caldarons wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who went to a high school (Italy) where in the first two years each student had a laptop they could use in the classroom, I agree that having a computer per student is a bad idea. In my experience, what ended up happening was that pupils who already knew their way around a computer didn't really get any extra benefit from using cmputers in the classroom and those who didn't like using computers hated it ev…

I think a lot of it started because of one of the better intended projects — the One Laptop Per Child movement that tried to give laptops to kids in poor countries. A key premise was that a laptop could be cheaper than all of the textbooks normally required, so the whole thing was really saving money. But envy is one of the most powerful forces in politics, even when it doesn't make sense. So the idea that children i…

> the One Laptop Per Child movement that tried to give laptops to kids in poor countries.

Relevant:

Morgan G. Ames

The Charisma Machine

The Life, Death, and Legacy of One Laptop per Child

> https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537445/the-charisma-machine/

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#96

Post by weberer » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:05 PM UTC

a321neo wrote: post #24

Public sector IT in Denmark has been in a weird tug of war between those eager to sell out our data to American companies and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft. We need to keep our data in Denmark and become less dependent on American companies (and especially Microsoft/Google). But the change needs to be led by IT professionals who ca…

>and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft

I was writing book reports on that exact stack over a decade ago. Its perfectly fine for students. Most people don't even explicitly chose Windows. They just use and adapt to whatever comes with their computer.

>forcing Linux and LibreOffice down the throat of elderly office workers.

Let office workers chose their needs on a case by case basis. But that shouldn't affect the stack you give to students.

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#97

Post by grugagag » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:06 PM UTC

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #89

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual reading is super important; the letteredness of people has been in decline for decades, and while it's partially to blame on the shift in entertainment preferences, schools de-emphasising reading and understanding in favor of other skills has been a big factor as well. Your remark about the suppliers wanting to get the kids "hooked" on their products isn't new btw, this was happening 20+ years ago already with…

Letteredness = literacy, right?

Yes

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#98

Post by ChrisArchitect » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:06 PM UTC

ChrisArchitect wrote: post #94

Is there a link somewhere to a webpage of the official Danish report or ruling? Press release? Why is this all reports via ppl in LinkedIn?

https://www.datatilsynet.dk/presse-og-nyheder/nyhedsarkiv/20...

In Danish only I suppose

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#99

Post by aleph_minus_one » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:08 PM UTC

mikej1000 wrote: post #68

throwaway71271 wrote: post #7

Schools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to ju…

I think they're a problem in universities too. I'm sure I've seen research that suggests students in lectures who take notes on paper get better grades that students who use laptops in lectures.

> I'm sure I've seen research that suggests students in lectures who take notes on paper get better grades that students who use laptops in lectures.

Honestly, I hated taking notes in lectures (and considered the necessity for it to be a distraction from paying full attention). On the other hand, there were these students who live-LaTeXed math lectures on their laptops ...

Re: Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark

#100

Post by rob74 » Wed, Feb 07, 2024, 1:09 PM UTC

a321neo wrote: post #24

Public sector IT in Denmark has been in a weird tug of war between those eager to sell out our data to American companies and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft. We need to keep our data in Denmark and become less dependent on American companies (and especially Microsoft/Google). But the change needs to be led by IT professionals who ca…

> better than forcing Linux and LibreOffice [...] well-designed web apps hosted in Denmark

Sure, instead of replacing Windows/M$-Office with Linux/LibreOffice, replace them with a web app which requires the elderly office workers to change their habits even more?

Why not sponsor developers to contribute to LibreOffice and fix the parts that aren't working or are causing problems instead? If all the public sector entities interested in replacing M$-Office in Europe contributed, they could really make a difference...