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Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

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Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#281
post #260

Why python? Why sink development effort into an obsolete and deeply flawed language?

Will not get into pros and cons of any language, but in what world python is obsolete?

In the world where the programming language theory kept developing, rather than being stuck in mid-80s.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, trying to learn KiCad is worse than learning Blender. I dunno. I've used others, and KiCad was no harder to start with than the others (Horizon, LibrePCB, Lepton/gEDA, some others I forgot). I asked for recommendations a week ago on HN for EDA products, and tried them all. You know which one I eventually settled on? The one with the most components (symbols + footprints). Turns out, features are nice (rules c…

This. By FAR the most annoying thing of creating a simple PCB is dealing with symbols and footprints. Why the hell is this is not a solved problem.

In our tool, just give it a part number and it will find and download the footprint and create an ato file for the component.

We currently support components on JLC, but eventually plan to build out a pretty substantial library. We will also capture a good fraction of information that you would currently need to go to the datasheet for.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#283
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and sold for real money "Lady Ada" and Adafruit certainly are good at price gouging. They often charge exorbitant prices for the same stuff we can get elsewhere at a fraction of the cost. No, providing datasheets and some instruction isn't enough, there's a thousand other sites with better instructions in most if not all cases.

As far as I can tell, Adafruit doesn't price gouge. More expensive than some other US places, sometimes, but usually not by much. Sometimes they're cheaper than similar US places. The only places that sell same or similar items for drastically less than Adafruit are places like Aliexpress (or the same foreign sellers selling on Ebay), and there are many reasons why Adafruit is more expensive than those places... Some…

>As far as I can tell, Adafruit doesn't price gouge.

They charge ridiculous prices for LED strips, the same strips you can get anywhere.

Here's one example:

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1461

Black LED strip. 60 LEDs/meter.

1 Meter = $24.95

4 Meters = $99.80

And they advertise 4 meters as a "full reel" when everywhere else 5 meters is considered a full reel. What jerks!

Same exact thing, except 5 Meters, $22.99:

https://www.amazon.com/LOAMLIN-WS2812B-Individually-Addressa...

So, let's calculate this price gouge.

Adafruit price per meter at 4 meters/roll = $24.95

LOAMLIN price per meter at 5 meters/roll = $4.60

Adafruit is charging 5.42 times the price.

And if I want to wait a few days more to get it delivered, Aliexpress has the same thing for $11.26 per 5 meter roll!

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800689099192.html

Every LED Adafruit sells comes from China, they do not make their own LEDs. They just mark up the price to a ridiculous extent and they prey on well meaning but clueless electronics hobbyists. There are many other examples, but I think I've spent enough time on this topic.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#284
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can do this with the Freerouting plugin it's non-trivial, you need to fiddle with parameters to encourage the autoroute towards certain behaviors. there are also some schematic patterns that lend towards better netlists and in turn better routing

In general, yes, but when I tried it, all free autorouters (and the paid one in Altium) failed to do the fan-out/escape of the ESP32's BGA. I then built a little CLI tool which used bitmap images and ConvNets to do just that one fan-out, but then I lost interest in it as soon as the PCB was finished.

I really wonder why autorouters are so bad/slow still, I at least understand the high level concept of what it should be able to do, and I would think that with enough input parameters, this shouldn't be that hard of a problem to solve, especially with how easy it is to deploy tasks across lots of powerful machines for (relatively) cheap these days.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#285

@Timot05 I wish you the best. Among other things, you are reinventing Verilog and other attempts. Yet, of course, evolution does not happen without people who are willing to devote their valuable time and effort to consider new ideas. My personal perspective, after having designed hundreds of PCB's, is that there's a reason for which symbol-based data entry has survived decades of computer-based circuit design evolut…

For me, the second main pleasure in doing electronics (in addition to seeing a useful, working device emerge) is plonking a rat's nest into the PCB designer and laying out all the components and traces by hand.

Take that away and I'm switching to point-to-point wiring. :)

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#287
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flawed? Sure, although every language has its flaws, some more than others. Deeply flawed? Not really. Obsolete? Lol, what. It's top 3 most popular languages.

> Deeply flawed? Not really. Python's performance problems are unfixable without wholesale redesign of the language and standard library. Its package management is a bad joke. The developers give no indication that they have any intention to fix those problems, rather than keep stuffing more unnecessary and badly thought-out features into it. Obsolescence should be gauged by how modern the design of a language is, ra…

> Python's performance problems are unfixable

Python's performance, aka runtime, is irrelevant for this application.

Getting things done is a much better goal that being modern.

Python is very good for getting things done for a wide range of applications.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#288
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, Adafruit doesn't price gouge. More expensive than some other US places, sometimes, but usually not by much. Sometimes they're cheaper than similar US places. The only places that sell same or similar items for drastically less than Adafruit are places like Aliexpress (or the same foreign sellers selling on Ebay), and there are many reasons why Adafruit is more expensive than those places... Some…

>As far as I can tell, Adafruit doesn't price gouge. They charge ridiculous prices for LED strips, the same strips you can get anywhere. Here's one example: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1461 Black LED strip. 60 LEDs/meter. 1 Meter = $24.95 4 Meters = $99.80 And they advertise 4 meters as a "full reel" when everywhere else 5 meters is considered a full reel. What jerks! Same exact thing, except 5 Meters, $22.99: h…

As I noted "Buying lots of things in order to resell them is more complicated than buying just one or two things for yourself". Both of the links you provided to cheaper sellers are not set up for bulk sales. The one on Amazon has a link for buying in bulk, but that only goes up to 999, and if you put 999 in for the quantity in their bulk page, it won't let you because they only have less than 100 pcs available. And the aliexpress link has a hard limit of 1 per customer. These are not reliable wholesalers, and when you're sourcing for retail, you need reliable wholesalers. When you're sourcing wholesalers for retail, you need someone that you can buy from in bulk repeatedly. Often you also want a wholesaler who'll let you set up payment terms (net-60 is pretty common) so you don't have to pay for the inventory up front. I'm fairly confident that if you looked and found a bulk wholesaler for this item that offers terms, the per unit cost is going to be closer to the Adafruit price than to the Aliexpress price you quoted. And then Adafruit marks it up, not to "prey on well meaning but clueless electronics hobbyists" but to cover the costs of doing business, like any retailer. These costs include shipping-from-wholesaler, warehousing, preparing when the item purchased is not in the final sellable state, adding photos and copy to website, adding educational resources, etc etc. Some of the costs are one-time costs and some are ongoing costs or recurring costs. Running a retail business isn't cheap, especially in the US. Note that LOAMLIN and Xnbada (the two "companies" behind the links you provided) have zero web presence beyond storefronts on Amazon and/or Aliexpress. I can't even tell you where they're shipping from (though it's highly likely it's China or somewhere else where labor is very cheap), let alone who owns/runs them. There's no accountability whatsoever besides the comments on their listings, which doesn't mean much these days. There's no product support besides _maybe_ being able to return (to China?) for a refund. If you're OK with all of that, then yes, buying from them makes more sense for you. But that still doesn't mean that Adafruit is price gouging.

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#289
post #120

The final part of the demo shows the output of the automatic build as something you can upload directly to a PCB manufacturer. How does this work given the output of the compiler is a netlist, not a PCB layout or Gerber file?

There are actually two steps to the design process: - First, requirements. In ato, you define how your circuit is connected and the requirements for the components that sit within it. From there, we generate a netlist and a BOM. - Second, the netlist is turned into an actual object during the layout operation. We use KiCAD's layout tool in our case. There are infinitely more dimensions in the real world than there ar…

If there are effectively infinite ways to produce a PCB layout that fits the requirements written in Ato, how is the second step done automatically in the final part of the demo video? If it's not done automatically, then how do you ensure the output of the compiler is compatible with any pre-existing PCB layout?

Re: Show HN: Atopile – Design circuit boards with code

#290
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As far as I can tell, Adafruit doesn't price gouge. They charge ridiculous prices for LED strips, the same strips you can get anywhere. Here's one example: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1461 Black LED strip. 60 LEDs/meter. 1 Meter = $24.95 4 Meters = $99.80 And they advertise 4 meters as a "full reel" when everywhere else 5 meters is considered a full reel. What jerks! Same exact thing, except 5 Meters, $22.99: h…

As I noted "Buying lots of things in order to resell them is more complicated than buying just one or two things for yourself". Both of the links you provided to cheaper sellers are not set up for bulk sales. The one on Amazon has a link for buying in bulk, but that only goes up to 999, and if you put 999 in for the quantity in their bulk page, it won't let you because they only have less than 100 pcs available. And…

Nice goalpost move.

>I'm fairly confident that if you looked and found a bulk wholesaler for this item that offers terms, the per unit cost is going to be closer to the Adafruit price than to the Aliexpress price you quoted.

Confidently incorrect.

We're talking about Adafruit gouging hobbyists. Not wholesale bulk purchasing.

For the average person buying a few or a dozen rolls of LEDs, Adafruit is the worst possible choice of vendor. Paying ridiculous prices for the same exact product is insanity.

Your tome trying to justify it is just tl;dr; nonsense. I'm sorry but it just is.

>But that still doesn't mean that Adafruit is price gouging.

Yes, they definitely are price gouging, and your mental gymnastics don't change that at all.

We're really done here, you obviously have an agenda and no amount of obvious proof will convince you of anything that might shatter your nonsensical world view. I'm not interested in you moving goalposts anywhere you want to win pointless internet arguments. Have a nice night.

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