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The mythos of leadership

aeon.co

51–60 of 66 posts

Re: The mythos of leadership

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> However, if, for example, Cyrus the Great did not help build the Jewish Second Temple And again, who was convincing Cyrus to do this? Why not call them the "great men" instead? Had Nebuchadnezzar the second never destroyed the Jewish temple would Cyrus had spoken as he did about the Jewish god? Had Cyrus not ordered it rebuilt, isn't it likely the Jews still would have survived to rebuild it later on? There's a rea…

Maybe yes, maybe no, it is not known and really, it's unknowable how the arc of history would have turned out had events been different. But it is not reasonable to say that their actions did not affect and influence the world, at their level of political power.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> However, if, for example, Cyrus the Great did not help build the Jewish Second Temple And again, who was convincing Cyrus to do this? Why not call them the "great men" instead? Had Nebuchadnezzar the second never destroyed the Jewish temple would Cyrus had spoken as he did about the Jewish god? Had Cyrus not ordered it rebuilt, isn't it likely the Jews still would have survived to rebuild it later on? There's a rea…

As far as I know, it isn't controversial amongst scholars whether Jesus existed - the consensus is that there was an actual teacher around whom the cult of Christianity formed. Obviously this consensus doesn't regard supernatural claims with any validity, nor the content of any Gospel as being historically accurate.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#53
post #8

This rings true because as someone without a religious background, I definitely feel the opposite: that progress is inevitable and the people who are "in charge" while it progresses are a commodity. I also find the "deification" of leaders (like say Steve Jobs) to be damaging to culture, leading to arrogance, political fighting and empire building. Trying to have a good life and be good to those around you, while rid…

> "I definitely feel the opposite: that progress is inevitable and the people who are "in charge" while it progresses are a commodity." This view is problematic too. It removes agency, accountability, participation. Leader worship is dangerous, I agree, but there's a strange emptiness to life when "someone's gonna do it, it's inevitable" takes root. A person ought to believe they can do great things. Also that we're…

I like to think of the solo hero vs the group as more like the difference between men's and women's basketball. Men's is all about the individuals but women's is interesting because there aren't really heroes so much as team play, teamwork.

And whenever I say that, there are people who immediately tell me that men's basketball is better. To those folks: it's ok to have a different opinion. You could be right! I'm just trying to illustrate another way of people working together.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#54

> Such books are celebrations of individualism. Their primary effect is to promote an individualist perspective on the world. Can we please stop reading history and stories as things that people in the past slavishly believed to the letter like unthinking machines? Of course stories about leaders glorify them. That’s just the victors writing history. Of course leaders and their sycophants mostly bragged and embellish…

> Can we please stop reading history and stories as things that people in the past slavishly believed to the letter like unthinking machines?

Medievalists don't do that. There are a lot of common wrong-headed beliefs that stem from "The Enlightenment," a time when some really smart people discovered that they were suddenly enlightened, thus causing the equally sudden endarkenment of the ones who lived before them in "The Dark Ages."

Re: The mythos of leadership

#55

This rings true because as someone without a religious background, I definitely feel the opposite: that progress is inevitable and the people who are "in charge" while it progresses are a commodity. I also find the "deification" of leaders (like say Steve Jobs) to be damaging to culture, leading to arrogance, political fighting and empire building. Trying to have a good life and be good to those around you, while rid…

Progress isn't inevitable because the government can stop it sometimes. Nuclear power is regulated to be forty times safer than natural gas (the safest natural gas) (the factor of forty is ignoring the additional climate costs), and that's why we don't have abundant nuclear power.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#56
post #8

This rings true because as someone without a religious background, I definitely feel the opposite: that progress is inevitable and the people who are "in charge" while it progresses are a commodity. I also find the "deification" of leaders (like say Steve Jobs) to be damaging to culture, leading to arrogance, political fighting and empire building. Trying to have a good life and be good to those around you, while rid…

> "I definitely feel the opposite: that progress is inevitable and the people who are "in charge" while it progresses are a commodity." This view is problematic too. It removes agency, accountability, participation. Leader worship is dangerous, I agree, but there's a strange emptiness to life when "someone's gonna do it, it's inevitable" takes root. A person ought to believe they can do great things. Also that we're…

> A person ought to believe they can do great things.

I think there's pressure on us to think this, but I find that the older I get the happier I am moving away from this idea. I've accomplished a lot in my life and at the end of the day it doesn't bring me satisfaction. What brings me satisfaction is being able to sit quietly with peace of mind and be content with just being.

The desire to do "great things" is paired with an existential anxiety that I don't think is healthy. And not to be political, but often "great things" mean accomplishments that don't correctly model externalities like environmental damage and human exploitation.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#57
> But you will usually read little in them about all the things that provided the basis for the success stories but which had nothing to do with the protagonists personally, like being born to wealthy parents in a socially and economically stable country with myriad educational and commercial opportunities. The message from this literary cottage industry is that where there’s a will, there’s a way. ‘Leaders’ are ‘winners’. They built themselves up and achieved greatness through their extraordinary qualities. They made their own history.

That's because it is largely true. There are a ton of people who are born into opportunity but never really leave their mark on history other than their position. For example, how many Pharaohs can you name?

Yet, there are people who have an impact far beyond their circumstances. An example is Temujin, whose father was killed when he was young, and he had a very hard early life but later became Genghis Khan one of the greatest rulers in history.

Octavian was born into wealth, and his uncle Julius did adopt him, but the odds were heavily stacked against him, but he became the founder of the Roman Empire, kicked off the Pax Romana, and became known in history as Caesar Augustus.

When Philip II came to the throne, the Macedonians had just recently suffered horrible defeat at the hands of the Illyrians and he was just a regent. He ended up becoming king, built the phallanx, and conquered Greece which was far wealthier than Macedon.

His son, Alexander, sure he was king, but Greece and Macedonia were just a backwater compared to the Achaemenid Persian Empire which probably ruled over a greater percentage of humanity than any empire before or since. He ended up conquering that Empire.

Sure, there are trends in history. Sure, many "Great Men" (and women) were born into privilege. But they end up doing something far greater than people in similar circumstances and make an inflection point in history!

Re: The mythos of leadership

#58
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this argument is all that great - most rational people have already internalized that luck plays a role for everyone in the world. To start with there is the "i was born healthy, wasn't malnourished, wasn't in a war zone" kinda luck. Then there is the "being at the right place at the right time" kinda luck - which is part luck, part perseverance and persistence. You won't be in the right place if you ne…

Except there is incredible luck and bias. Being born to rich or connected parents. Being white. Being male. Business culture has rarely been a meritocracy. Like the post above you said, there really isn't a lot going on here that millions others don't have. Its luck, failing upwards, and cultural biases and corrupt business culture making these people leaders. Scientifically, the only trait we've found these people h…

Your third paragraph is like talking about Tiger Woods without mentioning a green jacket.

There’s an implicit moralizing in your stance. Why do you presume that the dark triad traits you assert “””these people””” have in common are unrelated to merit? That suggests a moral, not pragmatic, stance that valorizes “the hard worker” while denigrating things like charisma, vision, boldness, and ruthless drive which, to sample your phrasing, are “trivially provable” to be essential traits of merit in leadership.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redemption is absolutely baked into the Hebrew Bible. The claim that Jesus is the Christ is the Christian bit. The fact of multiple authors and time periods doesn't categorically negate the possibility of a coherent narrative. One may end up at the conclusion that there's no coherent narrative. But to correlate the impossibility of an overall coherent narrative with the fact of multiple authors over multiple time per…

I'm curious how the apocrypha fit into this. Books have been actively filtered in order to create a coherent narrative.

Now I'm curious too. What parts of the apocrypha would throw a wrench in the gears of an otherwise cohesive narrative?

Also, maybe I wasn't as clear about my point as I could have been. By cohesive narrative I don't mean that the Bible reads seamlessly like a novel. I mean that it has very clear themes that are introduced and fulfilled over the course of the whole book.

Re: The mythos of leadership

#60
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need to have so many information in order to think for yourself. You can choose to believe it or not. I could make a manifesto about being the greatest person to have ever lived. People are not going to believe it just because there doesn’t exist a counter-manifesto about me.

Thinking for yourself required knowledge and actual study, not just something people can do on a moment's notice. For example, thinking about the movie 300 (2006) required some knowledge of how aristocratic Sparta actually works. It's basically a fascist movie glorifying the brutality of Spartan warriors with no question on its actual efficacy as a fighting force(unremarkable). I recommend this essay on why Sparta su…

> Thinking for yourself required knowledge and actual study, not just something people can do on a moment's notice.

What do you think happens when people work the land? When people cook, plant, tend animals, build their own tools to make more tools with, do handcrafts? They experiment and learn. They pass along knowledge.

I recommend picking up an Eric Sloane book if you're interested in that. He wrote a lot about not the middle ages in Europe, but how people lived in the pre-electrified rural US.

https://ericsloane.com

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