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Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

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Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#91
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make the ownership graph sufficiently complicated (as in enough companies crossing enough international jurisdictions through enough shared-ownership layers) you'll be: 1) invulnerable to lawsuits 2) the coolest person in the whole internet

You should see what the ownership graphs of most multinationals look like. I did an analysis of JP Morgan at one point and I kid you not the list of companies in small type with no formatting took 10 pages to print out. For all the people who are saying that this is hacking the legal system you are correct. This is routinely done and I recommend you spend some time reading up on it, because it is fascinating. For exa…

Those complex entity structures are usually done for tax or accounting purposes rather than to evade liability, although that can sometimes be an added benefit.

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#92
post #44

I've often thought that if you really wanted to pirate something, just start an S-corp for ~$200 and put your cable account in its name. If you get sued, tell them to litigate until they're blue, the company is going under.

If you make the ownership graph sufficiently complicated (as in enough companies crossing enough international jurisdictions through enough shared-ownership layers) you'll be: 1) invulnerable to lawsuits 2) the coolest person in the whole internet

Kazaa tried to do that. IIRC, so did Grokster, Morpheus, Limewire, BearShare and other P2P services. Look at how it turned out for them...

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#93
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't change anything. The subpoena will still be for the person who pays the bill at a location where multiple devices may be connected. I doubt that judge will give a subpoena to go look for a computer with a given MAC address at a location. But those worried can just change MAC address every few days.

When you are not behind a NAT, an IP can uniquely identify a device which, in turn, can, most likely, uniquely identify its owner.

If you have 2^48 IP addresses (like anyone with a free ipv6 tunnel does), you can assign your device a new IP address every day for 771164319755 years.

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#94
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see what the ownership graphs of most multinationals look like. I did an analysis of JP Morgan at one point and I kid you not the list of companies in small type with no formatting took 10 pages to print out. For all the people who are saying that this is hacking the legal system you are correct. This is routinely done and I recommend you spend some time reading up on it, because it is fascinating. For exa…

> I recommend you spend some time reading up on it I work for a portal that was recently acquired. The company who acquired the portal is, in part, owned by the same companies that own the telco that sold the portal, but the composition is different. I'm not even sure there are no cycles in the graph - it's perfectly possible some of the entities involved own themselves.

That's amusing. Can you have two companies that own each other? If so, how long does it take to finalize the books at tax time?

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#95
post #89

This may be a two edged sword. It also means that collecting data based on your IP is not an invasion of privacy. With IPv6 there is the potential for much finer grained assignment of IP addresses to such an extent that an IP address could become uniquely identified with an individual more readily than today.

Good point. Is it possible or probable that under IPv6, we could each have a "static IP for life"? Not that I'd necessarily want that...

It is not currently possible with the underlying routing technologies, nor do I think it would be desirable, for you to get a single IPv6 address assigned to your device for the entirety of its lifetime.

Firstly, each publicly route-able address (for both IPv4 and IPv6) belongs to a particular network (known as an Autonomous System). The traceroute utility on unix and windows can be used to show you the path from your local network to a particular network, simply by traceroute'ing address that you know are operated by a particular network.

The way this works is a series of routing protocols that ask the question, "Which network routes this address and what is the best path to get there?" and answer it in various ways.

So, I do not think it is possible or desirable for a single publicly route-able IPv6 address to follow a particular device between networks.

Finally, I would like to point out that, even though we can change them, MAC addresses are supposed to be the permanent unique identifier for a particular network interface. I do not think adding an IP equivalent makes any sense, especially when a particular interface may have multiple IP addresses, and a particular machine may have multiple interfaces.

Now I will forget my hackernews password once again, until I am needed.

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#96
post #89

This may be a two edged sword. It also means that collecting data based on your IP is not an invasion of privacy. With IPv6 there is the potential for much finer grained assignment of IP addresses to such an extent that an IP address could become uniquely identified with an individual more readily than today.

Good point. Is it possible or probable that under IPv6, we could each have a "static IP for life"? Not that I'd necessarily want that...

Not unless they decide to completely revamp how addresses are assigned, no.

Edit: and to address the comment that slipped in just ahead of me...MAC addresses as a part of IPv6 addresses are fine. If the interface is on several subnets, then the network portion of the IP address will be different.

Edit2: To clarify my initial comment, as the other commenter stated, there is no effective way to handle the routing for keeping the network portion the same, so that would always depend upon where you are. The only possibility could be to be assigned a permanent host ID, but considering how many devices the average person has with network access (I have a couple dozen easily, but I'm not average,) I'd think that this would be impractical anyway.

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#97
The actual ruling[1] has some interesting stuff besides what is covered in the article summary:

- Discussion about a time when it WAS possible to associate an IP address with a specific device and that, for the purposes of allowing discovery, it was REASONABLE to assume that the traffic from that device was initiated by the owner of that device. This has important implications for the future, as IPv6 may make "one ISP IP per actual end device" common again

- Some hilarious footnotes describing the hypocritical nature of the claims of this and plaintiffs in previous cases. In one case, a plaintiff made a claim that part of the reason for vigorous copyright claims was to "protect minors", when the very plaintiff had a teen porn website. Another footnote was about this plaintiff (K-beech) attempting to claim the moral high ground when in fact the person behind the company was the same who previously tried to extort adult book store owners with violence and bomb threats.

- A VERY interesting footnote which points out that it is still somewhat of an open question whether pornographic works are copyrightable at ALL

- The fact that, in the case of pornography, plaintiffs often rely on defendants settling even though they are innocent, simply because they don't want their name published in association with a video called "My Little Panties #2"

- Abusive tactics by the plaintiff to use information provided by discovery to harass defendants to settle. This includes asking for phone numbers and email addresses which, the judge observes, aren't necessary for servicing defendants and are mostly used to further the plaintiff's aggressive settlement tactics

- The hilarity of seeing things like "Maryjane Young Love and Gangbanged" in an official court filing

- And a whole section that's arguable more important than the IP address opinion...

Plaintiffs in these cases usually file a joinder[2] of claims and combine 10s, 100s, and sometimes 1000s of defendants in a single suit. However, the judge argues that even if he were to grant discovery on all the John Does in the case, he still might sever the joinder because:

- It is transparently an attempt to avoid paying the ~$350 filing fee for each claim. The courts, he says, don't take kindly on losing that much revenue simply because the fees don't fit the plaintiff's business model

- Joinder rules require, among other things, that the group of defendants must be related by the action “arising out of the same transaction, occurrence, or series of transactions or occurrences” and “any question of law or fact common to all defendants will arise in the action.”. In a wonderful display of deeply understanding the technical matters here, the judge argues that the technical nature of BitTorrent (to wit: that multiple parties seed the same file at the same time) does not alone satisfy the joinder requirement, simply because the user is not usually aware of these technical details.

- That, in any event, these co-defendants are only related by technical protocol and not case fact. Because of this, each defendant would still get to retain counsel, call witnesses, and defend him- or herself separately. In addition, the rules of joinder require certain actions that would involve n*(n-1) separate filings and would complicate the discovery process. This, the judge points out, turns an otherwise simple case into a massively complex one and thereby goes against the very reason why joinder was created in the first place.

In my opinion, this has the potential to be an even bigger setback to the copyright owners' tactics than the IP address opinion. If joinders like these are routinely severed because of these reasons, it would certainly make the "mass lawsuits against thousands of unnamed defendants" tactic a losing business model.

[1] http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/92215098 [scribd fullscreen]

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinder

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#99
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are not behind a NAT, an IP can uniquely identify a device which, in turn, can, most likely, uniquely identify its owner.

If you have 2^48 IP addresses (like anyone with a free ipv6 tunnel does), you can assign your device a new IP address every day for 771164319755 years.

Aren't most providers going to be handing out /64's? I know Comcast is working on that at the moment!

Re: Judge: An IP-Address Doesn’t Identify a Person (or BitTorrent Pirate)

#100
In California, red light cameras can land you a ticket, but not if they cannot identify you clearly from the photo. They compare your DMV picture of all things to the intersection photo. If you have your visor down, those high mounted cameras never get a good shot of your face ;)

Same principle here right? - you can always say it was a roommate or that you had an unsecured wifi router right?

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