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Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

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Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#161

Post by namaria »

marcyb5st wrote: post #150
ImageXav wrote: post #35

I was ridiculously excited when I first read about this in October (if I remember correctly) last year, when a few of the first results were beginning to pop out. I found the methodology fascinating. First of all the digital unwrapping of the scrolls, then the recognition that crackling in the paper was the sign of ink, and finally putting together a model to detect it, piece by piece. I need to look into the final r…

my understanding is that the scan they did on the scrolls returned the layers themselves. Like so: ``` xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx ... xxxxxxxxxx ``` So, by tiling the image on the surface you get data that is size_x * size_y * n_layers. So, it can be seen as a video stream with size_x * size_y * 1 channel * n_layers where the layers replace the temporal dimension.

They explain it on the methodology sections. The scans result in a stack of tiff images that can be rendered as videos of the scan or as 3d models.

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#162

Post by varjag »

jobs_throwaway wrote: post #122
fragmede wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's $700k divided three ways, too. $234k is well within FAANG compensation range, but you get to work on such an awesome project.

FAANG compensation range but no benefits and 100x the risk Make it $8m or $12m and FAANG employees can actually start to justify working on it seriously from a money perspective

Most of them are not good enough to make a dent in this task.

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#163

Post by Vespasian »

hnfong wrote: post #119
p-e-w wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be like explaining a baking recipe by starting with protons and electrons. State-of-the-art machine learning architectures aren't actually that complex. Diffusion models and transformers can be explained to a bright high schooler. I'm sure Archimedes and Euclid would have no problem understanding them. What they might have a problem understanding (or even imagining) is the mind-boggling amount of computati…

I think the quartz sand metaphor was to illustrate how advanced our silicon-based technology has become, not just the ML parts. Imagine all the stuff... transistors, Turing/Von Neumann machines, lithography, theoretical computer science, OS and compilers, the Internet... and lastly there's modern day machine learning that builds on top of all the above. The base level stuff isn't exactly protons and electrons, but gi…

The basic of concept how such a thing is powered (electricity) is so far removed from anything people did in ancient times that it would be hard to get them to understand that neither gods nor magic are invovled.

Smart "intellectual" people would certainly be willing to challenge basically everything they assume about nature, but I don't think your run of the mill farmer would be able to do that.

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#164

Post by Hedepig »

echelon wrote: post #133
xvector wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I am going for cryopreservation if I ever have the luxury of choosing the way I die.

Well, that could go lots of ways. Maybe some rich trillionaire buys you and spawns you into an endless horror simulation. They might be into torture and get off on it. ("No real humans harmed.") But if the future can reverse the light cone, nobody is immune to that fate. Who knows what the future holds. These are just sci-fi flights of fancy.

Argh, what has Black Mirror done to our sense of optimism?

(I agree with you).

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#165

Post by peter_retief »

ImageXav wrote: post #35

I was ridiculously excited when I first read about this in October (if I remember correctly) last year, when a few of the first results were beginning to pop out. I found the methodology fascinating. First of all the digital unwrapping of the scrolls, then the recognition that crackling in the paper was the sign of ink, and finally putting together a model to detect it, piece by piece. I need to look into the final r…

ditto about being excited!

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#166

Post by lynx23 »

qingcharles wrote: post #30
kretaceous wrote: post #5

When I first came across this project on HN (early last year), I was taken aback by how impossible the project looked and how smart were people working on this. Despite seeing a few intelligent names behind the project, I subconsciously believed that this would at least take 5-10 years before a breakthrough. Today I sit with the same amazement, taken aback again, appreciating how ridiculously awesome this is. Congrat…

So many things that look insane are becoming a reality. You look at those scrolls burnt to a crisp and the idea of reading them is nonsense. The fact I have a computer writing flowery alt text descriptions of my photos with unnerving accuracy is something I would not have predicted for another 20 years. But, here we are...

Kudos for caring about alt tags. Blind user here. While we are at it. I was also thinking how I could make good use of the new vision models. And after a while...

https://github.com/mlang/tracktales

The fact I have a computer generate spoken narration for my MPD playlist with descriptions of album art included just blows my mind. 2023 was indeed a fucking milestone.

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#167

Post by lynx23 »

Keyframe wrote: post #78
qingcharles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many things that look insane are becoming a reality. You look at those scrolls burnt to a crisp and the idea of reading them is nonsense. The fact I have a computer writing flowery alt text descriptions of my photos with unnerving accuracy is something I would not have predicted for another 20 years. But, here we are...

Right? Imagine trying to explain some of it to one of the ancients - so, you have this quartz sand, see?...

Sufficiently advanced technology is indestinguishable from magic...

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#168

Post by adastra22 »

Vespasian wrote: post #163
hnfong wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the quartz sand metaphor was to illustrate how advanced our silicon-based technology has become, not just the ML parts. Imagine all the stuff... transistors, Turing/Von Neumann machines, lithography, theoretical computer science, OS and compilers, the Internet... and lastly there's modern day machine learning that builds on top of all the above. The base level stuff isn't exactly protons and electrons, but gi…

The basic of concept how such a thing is powered (electricity) is so far removed from anything people did in ancient times that it would be hard to get them to understand that neither gods nor magic are invovled. Smart "intellectual" people would certainly be willing to challenge basically everything they assume about nature, but I don't think your run of the mill farmer would be able to do that.

Well we are wizards who speak in arcane languages to thinking rocks to convince them to do our bidding. We speak to golems.

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#169

Post by azalemeth »

An awesome achievement. I don't know if it's possible but I wonder if they could do energy-resolved CT and try to look for a differential absorption edge in that ink. I have no idea what material it is actually made of, but if the IR photo is different, then there's a nonzero chance they could generate quite significant contrast by hitting one of the K-shell edges of a characteristic ion (iron?) present in the ink but not in the papyrus itself. I've been to Diamond in the past but don't know enough about this experiment. Some of them are definitely energy resolved.

Utterly brilliant. I'm so glad it appears to be a bit of scholarly writing too, which is what I know most classicists secretly love!

Re: Vesuvius Challenge 2023 Grand Prize awarded: we can read the first scroll

#170

Post by patall »

xvector wrote: post #129
echelon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely insane the level of wizardry being applied here to turn a lump of blackened, charred scrolls into readable text. Imagine what we'll be able to do to brains, dead or alive, in 100 years. And in 10,000, maybe we'll be reconstructing the light cone. Maybe that's what we are right now. (Not serious, but it's a fun thought experiment.)

This is why I am going for cryopreservation if I ever have the luxury of choosing the way I die.

The part that I do not understand there is: why would anyone/everyone else want you to be alive again? And do not understand me wrong, I would very much be interested to talk to people from various ages. Specific ones, but also commoners. But why should someone want to restore thousands of random people from (e.g) 1284 on their own cost? That only works if those people have big stashes of money that are legally still theirs. And while I understand that some may want to keep ownership after death, I think it is super dangerous to have something like that. Just image, 10% of the world today still belonging to Dschinghis Khan. That cannot be good.
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