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Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Undergraduate GPA predicts lifetime earnings[1] That is...an extremely narrow study to use to make that broad an assertion. GPA of two classes from 2010 at a single business school in China, their starting salary, and then their salary in 2018?

You're right. But there are many other sources. The larger point is that, since you can study for tests (and GPA), that I think conscientiousness dominates. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/20/heres...

> You're right.

I would not give in to their assertions so easily if I were you.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the article claims grades are less predictive than test scores, UTs policy is actually intended to have a similar locally-normalized effect, leveraging the wide variability of high school quality in TX…

like many things, there are some pretty significant unintended consequences though. In my district in Texas, parents would send their kids to the worst high school in the district because it was dramatically easier to be top 4% and get auto-admit to UT that way

Granted UT Austin is really well ranked, that seems like a terrible move for the kids. Like, great, you got in to this really well regarded school, but your preparation to get there may well be considerably worse than nothing at all.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#363
post #331
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right but that's not what's being done when the community income is being used rather than family income. This leads to many complexities, injustices, and people gaming the system.

People gaming the system? Are affluent kids moving into housing projects in order to get admitted into Dartmouth? The fact is if they're in a public school in an underserved area, they are most likely going to a disadvantaged public school, and face strong headwinds trying to achieve the kinds of scores kids in affluent neighborhoods get. Note also that multiple factors are being looked at.

No, I've provided a detailed example for Chicago's Selective High School Enrollment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39266951.

Generally when such systems are implemented the levels are not binary, e.g. housing project vs affluent suburb. My point was that for some bimodal neighborhoods using the neighborhood income average is not effective. Is there a national, annually updated list of neighborhood underserved-ness list?

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#364
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this: >> Third, under test-optional policies, some less-advantaged students withhold test scores even in cases where providing the test score would be a significant positive signal to Admissions. Importantly, Dartmouth Admissions uses SAT scores within context; a score of 1400 for an applicant from a high school in a lower-income community with lower school-wide test scores is a more significant achievement than…

At what point can we use genetics to weight scores as well? I’m having a hard time logically justifying class factors (being born poor is not something you can control) but not genetic factors (being born dumb is not something you can control).

A key idea here is that being poor makes you do worse at high school relative to how well you would do at university. Being stupid probably doesn't. So being more generous to poorer students may result in getting an academically stronger set of students overall, whereas being more generous to stupider students won't.

(I don't know how true this "key idea" actually is. I can imagine ways in which poverty might disadvantage people that would persist through their time at university. But it seems plausible prima facie.)

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#365
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact that paying huge money for tutoring only results in minor score improvements This might be true in aggregate, but I’ve seen data that says otherwise (buddy owns a test prep school). The keys are that the student wants the test prep and that the student has room to grow (i.e., not already near the top, where increases are capped). Middle of the pack students can gain 50-150 points per skill (this is a lot).…

>Is this implying that Asian immigrants do better because of genetics (nature)? Yes, that is very likely true. I would go as far as to say that the "nurture" side of this coin is to a large extent an indirect result of nature as well.

> Yes, that is very likely true. I would go as far as to say that the "nurture" side of this coin is to a large extent an indirect result of nature as well.

I’m not sure if you’re Asian or have lived in Asia, but…

I have lived and worked in East Asia for 9 years, and I have worked with Asians (both Asian-Americans and Asian immigrants) for decades more, and I will just say that this strikes me as patently untrue.

East Asians (from East Asia) are often better educated as a group, but what they do with that knowledge is often underwhelming.

If a study were to control for things that correlate with intelligence like “was able to work with / game a system that led to immigration”, then I might agree that certain immigrants might have IQ that skews slightly higher. That said, the predictive variable there would not be race, but the ability to understand and work successfully within a complex system.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#366
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had suggested to my high school friends that we "prep for the SAT" I think I would have been roundly laughed out of the room.

Right. So if a high school is full of that kind of kids, someone performing well on the SAT shows more grit and perseverance than my kind of peers. Colleges should rightfully award that.

It sounds like an award for breaking Goodhart’s law, but it’s amazing how many kids don’t know this one simple trick to getting good grades and getting into a nice university (study for tests using available prep material).

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#367
post #346
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that by your standards "stupid" would be equally invalid. We don't use "retarded" as medical term. If you have a medical condition then you are "intellectually disabled". Retarded is now mainly used to mean "very stupid" or "incredibly stupid" in informal context e.g. like in HN comments.

We've changed to "blocklist" and "allowlist" to avoid giving offense. Is it really too much to ask people to come up with another word to use that hasn't been hurled at innocent people as an insult?

Blockhead has definitely been hurled at innocent people as an insult.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#368
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can replace social science with "science about predicting people's behavior" if you want. The important thing is that IQ is one of the most powerful predictors of human behavior in science. So few things get proven to have a major effect on outcomes over and over again. You shouldn't just throw that out.

I think IQs usages outside of a very narrow scope of a) psychometrics and b) developmental psychology is very limited, if any to speak of. In developmental psychology it is more often a tool to detect developmental or learning disabilities, and even then many (most?) psychologist prefer individual subtests rather then to assess the whole IQ of the individual, indicating that it is not the IQ it self which is useful,…

> psychologist prefer individual subtests rather then to assess the whole IQ of the individual, indicating that it is not the IQ it self which is useful, but rather the tests.

This aligns with my experiences during my ADHD diagnostic process.

Perhaps IQ can be useful to some degree at population levels, but I am not even sure about that -- way outside my area of expertise. I do strongly believe IQ falls apart at an individual level. At least, past a certain extent. I imagine IQ might be a decent predictor of outcomes for an individual if his or her IQ is below one standard deviation of average i.e., (IQ Person A has an IQ of 125, and person B hasn't an IQ of 130. Realistically, how much of difference can we expect in life outcomes for these people? How much does each single point actually matter? I've never been able to find a good answer to this either.

Another issue I have is that IQ testing seems to be a snapshot of all of one's particular factors and circumstances at that given time. I liken IQ testing to something like hunger testing. I do not believe intelligence is generally a constant value nor is something like hunger. Both are qualitative by nature anyway.

I'm sure we could create a "Hunger Quotient" and use it to measure hunger the way we measure intelligence. However, wouldn't one's hunger vary depending on prior circumstances and factors like when the last time one ate, how much one ate, how many calories one has burned since his or her last meal, etc.?

I imagine IQ is no different. If I deprived myself of sleep for more than 24 to 48 hours straight and then took an IQ test, then I wouldn't be surprised if my score was significantly lower than taking it when well rested. There are probably damn near infinite amount of factors -- Do you have test anxiety? Do you have any chronic conditions? Any recent, major life stressors? Do you even care about doing well on this IQ test?

My point is that IQ can only tell you how "intelligent" you are at that given point in time when you took that exact test. That makes me question the utility of it even more.

I understand research tries to control for these types of factors, and that the tests seem to have great reliability when retaken. However, in my experiences, it does not seem like there is any attempt to control for variables in a clinical setting where these test are most often administered...

Finally, I would like to mention Lewis Terman's fun experiment which I believe he started in the 1920s where he followed a group of 1500 or so "gifted" children throughout their lives and for the rest of his life. Of the 1500 or so gifted children, while still mostly successfully, apparently none of them went on to become anything noteworthy.

However, two children that were not included in the study due to having too low of an IQ, William Shockley and Luis Alvarez, both went on to win a Nobel Peace Prize separately and in separate fields.

I'm not saying this proves anything, but I do find it rather funny.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#370
post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

Is this a US thing because there has been so much debate on race, equity and etc? I thought this was obvious. Academic excellence arguably requires the least resources, which means the difference in social-economic status matters the least. All one needs is access to excellent books and internet resources, a competent teacher, and optionally a supporting community. And one driven kid can get all of them from libraries and the internet nowadays.

Besides, SAT and ACT are really simple tests. If one gets 1600 for SAT, it does not mean this person will excel in academics, but if one gets 800 for SAT, well, this person statistically is not smart enough to achieve academic excellence. Of course, this person can be smart in many other ways.

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