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Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

ir.yandex

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Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#291

Post by twixfel »

thriftwy wrote: post #287
twixfel wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no scenario where Eastern European countries, who had been living under Russian tyranny for several centuries, only recently to secure their independence and security as part of the EU or NATO, are going to unilaterally disarm just to please Russia. Other countries just managed to join NATO fast enough before Putin lost his mind. Ukraine's mistake was joining too slowly. Now Russia and Ukraine both suffer fo…

> who had been living under Russian tyranny for several centuries Most of these countries Russia never touched, or fought off of Turks and then let them be. They never lived under Russia's anything . Were it Czechs live under several centuries of Russian tyranny? Because these ones are particularly obnoxious now, despite many years of feeding off of Russian statesmen in Karlovy Vary. I don't think you even remotely u…

Czechs were only part of the Russian Empire for about 45 years, and only in the 20th century. Could have been worse.

I think you just struggle to understand how fundamentally your country is hated by Eastern Europeans. Russia is like Germany, if Germany still was proud of its Nazi heritage. You just don't get it, it's sad, you're so hated but you have no idea why, you're just so blinded by ultranationalism. Russia could have chosen to enter the 21st century but instead decided to enter the 18th. Meanwhile most of your people outside of Moscow and St Petersburg don't even have indoor toilets. It's honestly tragic what a gigantic shithole your country is, and yet you're so proud of it being such a gigantic shithole. Just tragic.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#292

Post by kergonath »

ecommerceguy wrote: post #156
kergonath wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking to people actually living in the place could give you a clue. Putin is a neocon, sure, but no bureaucrat started this war and Ukraine is very unlikely to just fold and submit if the US stop their support. Liberals have also nothing to do with Russian aggression.

>>no bureaucrat started this war 2 bureaucrats that have incessantly called for war quickly come to mind, Jake Sullivan and Victoria Nuland.

What? You haven’t been paying attention. These people had no power to start anything.

Also, last time I checked, it was Russia who invaded, not the US, which are not a party in this war.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#293

Post by kergonath »

somenameforme wrote: post #223
mopsi wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None if this is true. For example, the "pro-Russian President" wasn't overthrown. At Russian pressure, he ditched a very favorable trade agreement with the EU that would've opened up many new business opportunities for Ukrainians. When protesters assembled, he ordered police snipers to shoot at them, killing 108 people. He fled to Russia the next day and Ukraine's parliament voted to remove him from office, and sched…

Wiki has a surprisingly good timeline of the event. [1] Even the identity of the snipers has, again, a quite reasonable page on Wiki. [2] You might want to at least add in the whole thing about "protesters" shooting at police officers to try to escalate the conflict, occupying government buildings and seizing substantial quantities of weapons, Western cities (which tend to be very pro-EU and anti-Russia for those not…

> Wiki has a surprisingly good timeline of the event. [1] Even the identity of the snipers has, again, a quite reasonable page on Wiki. [2]

None of these link support your point of view, though.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#294

Post by thriftwy »

twixfel wrote: post #291
thriftwy wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who had been living under Russian tyranny for several centuries Most of these countries Russia never touched, or fought off of Turks and then let them be. They never lived under Russia's anything . Were it Czechs live under several centuries of Russian tyranny? Because these ones are particularly obnoxious now, despite many years of feeding off of Russian statesmen in Karlovy Vary. I don't think you even remotely u…

Czechs were only part of the Russian Empire for about 45 years, and only in the 20th century. Could have been worse. I think you just struggle to understand how fundamentally your country is hated by Eastern Europeans. Russia is like Germany, if Germany still was proud of its Nazi heritage. You just don't get it, it's sad, you're so hated but you have no idea why, you're just so blinded by ultranationalism. Russia co…

I think I don't struggle to imagine how Eastern Europeans loved Russia, Soviet Union and Communism just 40 years back. 80 years back, Eastern Europeans just loved Germany and Hitler. Now they are huge fans of the USA. This time it's for real. Genuine Eastern European feeling and honest hatred for everybody who came before.

The problem with most Eastern Europeans is that they'll sing and dance on anybody's 5 cents. You can buy and sell them and they will always be eager to serve.

That is frankly revolting to Russians who are able to maintain long term loyalties, and will be heartbroken to betray long term commitments. Russians do not hate Eastern Europeans, neither do they want to invade and occupy their countries, but Russians do despise Eastern Europeans now. Every stupid thing you say gets laid on these scales.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#295

Post by kergonath »

somenameforme wrote: post #228
twixfel wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think all of Russia's annexations should be recognised by the international community?

No, I think the people of these regions should have been allowed to decide their own fate, which then should be internationally recognized. This is, of course, impossible now because the war means that the demographics have shifted substantially and irreversibly. But this would have at least been a viable path forward in 2014. The problem is that nobody wants this sort of democracy unless they like the answer they're…

> No, I think the people of these regions should have been allowed to decide their own fate, which then should be internationally recognized.

This means that Russia needs to go back to its border and free and fair elections need to be held, in accordance with the country’s constitution. Right? You realise that Russia leaving the country is a pre-requisite for the people to vote freely? Unless you count what we’ve seen in Crimea, in the Donbas and in the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts as somehow free and fair. You know, when the ballot boxes were brought to each house by armed Russian soldiers with tanks on the streets.

> But this would have at least been a viable path forward in 2014.

2014 was when Putin put everything in motion, having spent the previous years setting it up. If you think that anything reasonable could happen under Yanukovich, well, you were not paying attention.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#296

Post by roenxi »

HideousKojima wrote: post #78
roenxi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is little hope of normalizing relations with Russia After 9/11, the US maintained productive relations with the Saudis. They're actively supporting Israel through the Gaza business. They have a long history of propping up dictators and thrashing countries for hard-to-articulate reasons (I still don't get exactly what the point of Afghanistan or Iraq was, even accepting the blunt "oil" that is sometime…

>(I still don't get exactly what the point of Afghanistan or Iraq was, even accepting the blunt "oil" that is sometimes given out). Are you serious? At least on the Afghanistan one? The war in Afghanistan began because the Taliban refused to extradite Osama Bin Laden (and several other terrorist, but Osama was the biggest one), it's pretty straightforward.

I'm sure you're saying that from a place of honesty, but you clearly aren't speking for the people who actually make these decisions:

1. When the US actually wanted to get Bin Laden in a country that wouldn't extradite him, they sent a special ops team to Pakistan. They violated Pakistan's sovereignty a little bit and then everyone moved on. So the idea that they needed to launch a full invasion of Afghanistan is just silly and the people who sent the army knew that. They had to have had ulterior motives, or sending the military was so incompetent there would have been a very public purge of the US military leadership.

2. If we're saying the US military is a magic button to override the legal system in another country (which, fair enough, it is) then what is the issue with what Russia is doing? Their interests in Ukraine are more legitimate than the US not feeling like negotiating or due process for Bin Laden & friends. Of course if the US had spent a bit more time doing things legally, the planners would have had time to point out that a full scale invasion was counterproductive, and I think it is less obvious that Russia would have found something similar; I don't see how they could have dealt with what the US state department seems to be doing without an army. But hey, I'm not a diplomatic corps, maybe they could have come up with something.

And if I look at the wiki article [0], we see "The Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to a neutral country for trial if the US would provide evidence of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks". Maybe 2-5 years of negotiating and some actual evidence would have been justified? The US must have had evidence against al-Q, because otherwise they couldn't have known who was responsible. if they'd negotiated to send him to Pakistan where the SEAL team is comfortable operating then they could have short circuited a lot of death, wasted time and wasted money.

I know you didn't say anything about the Russian invasion, but this is sort of my angle here - the actions in Afghanistan show that this sort of thing is a bit of a non-event as far as international politics goes. It is only a big deal because the US is making it one.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#War_on_terror

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#297

Post by kergonath »

twixfel wrote: post #169
whimsicalism wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is not just their choice. Russia has indicated their willingness to accept current holdings (for now, you are right there are no guarantees). Ukraine could and should get better than just that, but this notion of taking back Crimea is a pipe dream and I don’t support continued funding until that goal is realized.

If you want to be extremely cynical and seek to strictly extend and project the USA's power as harshly and effectively as possible, the war in Ukraine was God's gift to the USA. They get to basically take out Russia (China's key geopolitical ally) without losing a single American life, for a tiny fraction of the amount they're used to spending on wars. And yet it's American nationalists themselves who want it all to…

> If you want to be extremely cynical and seek to strictly extend and project the USA's power as harshly and effectively as possible, the war in Ukraine was God's gift to the USA. They get to basically take out Russia (China's key geopolitical ally) without losing a single American life, for a tiny fraction of the amount they're used to spending on wars.

In a sane timeline, support for Ukraine should be unanimous amongst US politicians. Whether they would be neocons (following the calculation you outlined), liberals out to support oppressed people, cold-hearted capitalists out to make a buck both during wartime and in reconstruction, anyone supporting the military who will get an influx of new toys as their old ones are shipped out to Ukraine at basically no cost for the taxpayer, testosterone-addicted macho patriots who get to see American technology crush the remains of a former peer adversary.

It really should be a no brainer. And yet…

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#298

Post by kergonath »

twixfel wrote: post #178
whimsicalism wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming I am some Trump American-first Republican. I think you are severely misjudging the politics of Ukraine support in the US, which has collapsed in the last few months. Perhaps I am opposed to harsh projections of American power in an increasingly multipolar world? The global playing field is leveling, I think that is precisely the wrong time to be making even bitterer enemies.

Yes I am assuming that very much, but it does not matter that much, either you're America first or you agree with their foreign policy anyway on Ukraine. I understand that Ukraine support has been politicised even when it should not be. This says much more about the utterly dysfunctional state of American politics and the decline of American society whereby you're seriously entertaining reelecting Trump next year. It…

> In forcing "détente" on Europe, are you happy to trade good relations with most of Europe, your oldest allies, for maybe better relations with Russia, your enemy who hates you and seeks your destruction? Really? Sounds like a shit and moronic deal to me.

There won’t be any détente in Europe. There was an opportunity in the early 2000s but both Russia and Western European countries fumbled it. Now the door was closed and Russia’s actions ensured that it won’t open for quite a while. It is difficult to grasp how profound the effects on European politics has been.

This is what is so pathetic about those Americans who delude themselves thinking that if they close their eyes it will be ok. The world is slipping through their fingers and they don’t realise that this is accelerating the disintegration of American power. This war is fundamentally different from Iraq in a way they do not seem to grasp.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#299

Post by kergonath »

whimsicalism wrote: post #149
twixfel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's deep animosity between Russia and much of the West. It's very easy for Americans to shrug their shoulders and say "we don't care it's a long way away", regardless of whether or not that would be a historic surrender for the global hegemon, but we Europeans cannot. It's on our doorstep. Russia has not just attacked Ukraine, but all of Europe. There will never be normalised relations with Russia whilst…

The comparison between Putin and Hitler is ridiculous. Europe’s economy is in shambles, they do not have the power to push back if Russia and the US were to push for détente never mind that the country with the most EU influence (Germany) is a major dove on this issue.

> The comparison between Putin and Hitler is ridiculous.

And yet, here we are with another ultranationalist dictator hell bent on getting back that vital space and dreaming of fallen empires. Hitler had Charlemagne, and Putin has Catherine and Peter the Great. Putin did not gas anybody that I know of, but the gulags remained the whole time. It’s true that he is closer to Stalin than Hitler in many respects, but I am not sure it’s much better.

> Europe’s economy is in shambles, they do not have the power to push back if Russia and the US were to push for détente never mind that the country with the most EU influence (Germany) is a major dove on this issue.

That is a terrible misreading of how the EU functions. By design it cannot be dominated by a single country and Germany is basically following others. It’s not a major dove in any way, it’s just in the middle of the pack and they started from a fundamentally pacifist political background. The fact that they are merely talking about rearming is a demonstration of the seismic shift in domestic politics there.

Détente won’t happen in the current situation, regardless of what the US push for. They simply have no power to force that outcome. What would happen is another Korea, Georgia or Moldova: a country split in two, with one half living under yet another brutal dictatorship.

Re: Yandex to divest its Russia-based businesses

#300

Post by ivan_gammel »

snird wrote: post #202
ivan_gammel wrote: post #65

I feel sorry for Volozh, he managed to keep his business for longer than many others. It is interesting that a part of the deal is paid in yuan, probably to avoid Western sanctions. This is the new reality in which Russian businesses do exist now and may be a sign of the fragmentation of the global financial system. Also interesting is that while Volozh now resides in Israel, Yandex was very active in UAE recently wi…

The massacre was in Israel, when Hamas mass raped and murdered Israelis. What happens in Gaza is a justified war to prevent such attacks from occuring again.

What happens in Gaza is both justified war and a massacre, because Israel does not fulfill its obligations under international law to protect Palestinian civilians.

More specifically Israel did not:

1. offer a refuge to Palestinian civilians with necessary infrastructure on the territory secured and controlled by its own military (i.e. on its own territory);

2. organize evacuation of people from war zone;

3. ensure safe passage for humanitarian aid in a sufficient volume;

4. start planning reconstruction and aid to help Palestinians building independent democratic state under the two-state solution.

I don’t want to start a long discussion on why this didn’t happen, just to state the fact that it did not and as a result numerous war crimes were committed, which could have altered the relationship with Arab states, but they didn’t. And that is a notable fact to me with regards to the specific person and company.

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