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More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

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Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#291

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

It's not just about safety, it's about the flying experience and environmental responsibility. If you think "flying sucks" it's probably because you've flown in a 737 and similar (A320) aircraft. Many people find it highly stressful to fly in a 737-class airplane because the curve of the fuselage is circular. My neck starts to lock up just thinking about it, but you don't have the same problem riding in a car, bus, o…

> domestic flyers in the U.S. deserve something better than a 1967 design.

And Boeing was working on a replacement for the entire 737-757 line, a brand new airplane using many of the same concepts as the 787 "Dreamliner" but it took a long time and in 2011 Southwest blackmailed them if they need to retrain their pilots then they might as well buy Airbus.

Sources. First for the replacement airplane.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2011/02/11/boei...

> Feb 11, 2011

> Boeing chairman and CEO Jim McNerney told a conference Thursday that Boeing probably will offer an all-new aircraft to replace its current generation of Boeing 737s.

> McNerney says Boeing prefers the new-airplane option to a second option -- re-engineering its current 737 lineup to accept a more fuel efficient engine.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/civ...

> Boeing has begun work on the 737-RS, a research program to build a new aircraft to replace the 737, which carries roughly 170 passengers. By mid-2009 Boeing expected to arrive at a design template for the 737 replacement, with "notional entry into service" around the year 2015.

> Boeing's long term plan as of 2005 seemed to involve three aircraft, designated Y1, Y3 and Y3. The Y1 is the 737RS.

Page last modified: 07-07-2011

Second, the blackmail.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/legal...

> Not only did Southwest management not want their pilots who flew the earlier model 737 NG to have to train in a flight simulator for the MAX, they insisted to Boeing that even classroom training be off the table, the filing shows. Southwest insisted on a clause in the sales contract stipulating a penalty of $1 million per airplane delivered if that standard wasn’t met.

> As the MAX’s most influential customer, Southwest’s insistence on this “infected every aspect of the birth and development of the new 737,” the legal filing asserts.

This is, of course, the legalese version of the blackmail mentioned above.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#293
post #248
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? The CEO of a company this big, no matter their background, has no business building an intimate understanding of the tech. This is certainly a point of contention in modern schools of business thought, but the concept of a CEO who doesn't understand what the company builds is bizarre to me. The CEO of Boeing, IMO, should probably have aircraft engineering experience, and, ideally, also be a pilot with the suit…

Does the CEO need to know these things? I would argue no. What needs to happen is the CEO needs to listen and trust the technical people that report to him. There is a misalignment of priorities that will never be fixed as long as the primary incentive for the CEO is to maximize shareholder value. If you remove that, and force the primary incentiven to be safety over profits, the rest of the business will follow.

> needs to listen and trust the technical people that report to him.

If the CEO has no clue what the company does, those people could be blowing smoke up his/her ass

There has to be assurance of technical competency somewhere, and someone that has ultimate authority to get rid of the incompetent.

This doesn't disagree with your second sentence. The pursuit of profit seems to turn everything into a bank or gacha machine. Both safety and competency fall by the wayside.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. I thought I read they were planning to cut back on quality control staff this year. Was that true? Did it change?

Interesting, source?

I'm not sure about this year, but here is an article from 2020 between the MAX crashes about that very thing. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein...

Ed Pierson, a Boeing whistleblower on quality, has also commented on similar efforts by the company a couple of months later. https://www.edpierson.com/removal-of-quality-control-inspect...

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing needs to dump the CEO and install someone from an engineering lineage if they want to build their reputation back. An engineering company run by a longtime manager with a background in accounting is in large part how Boeing got here. Fire the guy and get someone with a technical background in there.

I don't buy the oft-repeated claim that you can re-make a company simply by replacing the CEO. I don't believe that CEOs in large companies have much influence on the company's direction, except in terms of decisions to downsize/outsource, how to use money, and who's on the board. There's only so much one person can do (and accordingly, I think all big-company CEOs are vastly overpaid). Moving the deckchairs in the b…

What about Apple?

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#296

I do get the impression that the current Boeing CEO is attempting to turn the culture around, to a more "admit the problem and fix it" kind of attitude. The problem is that, if you are doing this after many years of "deny the problem and ship it", the number of apparent problems is actually going to go up for a while. I wonder if Boeing's customers and shareholders will have enough patience for him to complete the tr…

For what it's worth, in "Flying Blind", the book written about the first round of 737 max issues, the author has a pretty negative outlook on Calhoun as being mostly aligned with Muilenburg. > Robison, however, finds little reason for optimism. While Boeing has now accepted responsibility for one of the crashes as part of a settlement, no one at the company besides Forkner has been charged with a crime. Muilenburg wa…

Can ELI5 why do investors (owners of the company) accept CEO's pay packages that involve golden parachutes? It doesn't make sense to me (I mean, it might in case of offensive takeovers, but who's gonna take over Boeing?!)

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#297
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment seems to imply that Spirit is owned or primarily owned by Boeing? But I can't find any support for that. See https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SPR/holders Am I misunderstanding your point?

Boeing originally owned the facility and sold it. Spirit was founded explicitly to buy and run the facility.

But Boeing doesn't appear to be maintaining any significant ownership or control over the company. They have other customers, including Boeings biggest competition. Usually the term "liability sheild" would impy that the subject still owns, controls, or otherwise profits from the companies operations, while shielding the subject from liability for the companies actions. It appears that Spirit is in fact very independant from Boeing at present.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#299
post #293
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the CEO need to know these things? I would argue no. What needs to happen is the CEO needs to listen and trust the technical people that report to him. There is a misalignment of priorities that will never be fixed as long as the primary incentive for the CEO is to maximize shareholder value. If you remove that, and force the primary incentiven to be safety over profits, the rest of the business will follow.

> needs to listen and trust the technical people that report to him. If the CEO has no clue what the company does, those people could be blowing smoke up his/her ass There has to be assurance of technical competency somewhere, and someone that has ultimate authority to get rid of the incompetent. This doesn't disagree with your second sentence. The pursuit of profit seems to turn everything into a bank or gacha machi…

That goes back to the trust of his people.

He has to trust his CTO (whatever that title is at boeing for their top engineer manager) to be the judge of that. The incentives have to align wrt quality engineering for there to be trust all the way down to the junior most engineer.

Re: More misdrilled holes on 737 MAX in latest setback

#300
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the US government is not Boeing. Yes, Boeing is a private business. You are describing your general distaste for two entities and attempting to rationalize it. My only guess that steelmans that is you think Boeing would cease to exist without its defense business.

As of 2020, 21% of the DoD's budget went to Boeing, and was 31% of Boeing's revenue: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/01/02/ho... It's unlikely either organization would exist as it currently does without the other.

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