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Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#131
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standardized exams are the most fair and transparent. perhaps the _most_ fair right now, but certainly not what I would consider fair. consider a middle class family that has secure food, housing, and transportation vs lower class family where the child might potentially have less consistent sleep, food, or has to work to help pay bills. one has more distractions than the other.

And how do you correct for that? Move all children to government controlled facilities and do not let them see their parents until they are some age like 21? Or maybe we should get rid of all criteria for education and just do huge once a year lottery. You get one chance to enter. As poor people can not afford more.

> As poor people can not afford more.

Then you gotta make it affordable for them.

You can still have elite schools for the absolute best (though I would question that certain self-styled 'elite schools' are really principally selecting for that and not e.g. wealth or family connections), but that doesn't mean that you cannot raise the bar on public and affordable education (including traditional schools and universities but also via other means, e.g. self-teaching via online resources). These are two competing goals and often people only focus on the one to the exclusion of the other, but they are both important.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, you mean kids from a disadvantaged background can't build a 10 page CV filled with outreach, volunteering, expensive sports and musical practice by the time they're 18? They don't have an instinctive feel for the current pieties, bred into them since they're 3, to put in their admission essays?

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#134
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the thing that tests do not sample is persistance. Missing that degree of freedom misses important mind-sets to achieving goals. One of the most interesting studies, not specifically focused on "success" / GPA, but on "life-satisfaction" comes from a longitudinal study "Project Talent"[1]. The key correlation to "life-satisfaction"/happiness is how many questions a person _attempts_ to answer on an otherwise un-f…

Wouldn't someone with grit will find a way to persevere and thrive regardless of which institution accepts them?

Probably, but you want to give the network effects to them to multiply their societal effectiveness. Long term rewarding them is less about assisting them individually but increasing their influence on the general welfare.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#135
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the thing that tests do not sample is persistance. Missing that degree of freedom misses important mind-sets to achieving goals. One of the most interesting studies, not specifically focused on "success" / GPA, but on "life-satisfaction" comes from a longitudinal study "Project Talent"[1]. The key correlation to "life-satisfaction"/happiness is how many questions a person _attempts_ to answer on an otherwise un-f…

Disagree. You can retake the tests, hence they do test for persistence.

this clearly pales in comparison to the extended effort for 4 years of highschool that is factored into your gpa

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#136
Of course high scores on a test are going to correlate with academic achievement, they are both just a measure of ability to pass tests. This is like saying people who swim very well will have high achievement in swimming competitions.

The paper's summary implies that they should make testing mandatory, because when they made testing optional, they couldn't see the students who they'd like to admit. But they kind of ridiculously don't comment on the fact that mandatory testing might not make any difference at all.

There must be reasons students don't send in scores when testing is optional. But just making the testing mandatory doesn't address those reasons at all. So there is no reason to conclude that suddenly applicants would start sending in scores at a higher rate. It's equally likely they would just stop applying.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#137
post #40
post #28

Here's the money quote: >> Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. Precisely. SATs aren't about hurting the poor or disadvantaged. It's about giving them a chance.

And this: >> Third, under test-optional policies, some less-advantaged students withhold test scores even in cases where providing the test score would be a significant positive signal to Admissions. Importantly, Dartmouth Admissions uses SAT scores within context; a score of 1400 for an applicant from a high school in a lower-income community with lower school-wide test scores is a more significant achievement than…

> Dartmouth Admissions uses SAT scores within context; a score of 1400 for an applicant from a high school in a lower-income community with lower school-wide test scores is a more significant achievement than a score of 1400 for an applicant from a high school in a higher-income community

And this is how you again discriminate based on race in a post-Affirmative Action world. The weight they assign to each context is completely arbitrary and tuned to achieve whatever objectives they have.

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know. Being good at taking tests in high school is a positive indicator for being good at taking tests in college? A staggering discovery.

I don't know if you're trying to make a point about test taking, but you're aware that college GPA is composed of more than just being a good test taker? Better way of putting it might be: someone that scores highly on an IQ proxy is good at everything.

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Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the universities were sincere about that, they would figure out how to increase enrollment. Why is every parameter of admissions open to change despite tradition, except that one?

Dartmouth in 1950 was an all mens college that enrolled less than 2,500. Women weren't allowed until the 1970s. Dartmouth today has 6,700 students of all races, genders, religions. Enrollment numbers can and do change, but it is much harder and slower to change something that is physically and resource constrained than it is to change policy.

I thought we could fix the world by writing things on offical looking paper though, you are saying we cant just vote that everyone gets a free Lamborghini?

Re: Report on the role of standardized test scores in undergraduate admissions [pdf]

#140
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your local library probably has test prep books. I know things have gotten more competitive since back in the day but you can probably get 90% of the way there without expensive test prep courses. (Yes, it takes time and commitment but it's mostly not the case that paying for test prep courses automatically translates into higher scores.)

The real cost is the opportunity cost. Prepping for a competitive test (I don't know if SAT or ACT is one) is a full-time job. If you work for living, you don't have the time and energy to prepare adequately.

A lot of it measures high-schooly type stuff. I imagine if you put a SAT down in front of me today, I'd do terribly (especially in math in spite of having advanced degrees). I just don't have instant recall of a lot of the geometry and other stuff at this point. Heck, I'm not sure I could even do long division.
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