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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#411

Post by pmjordan »

jakobe wrote: post #402
pmjordan wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veering into the crash barrier of off-topicness, but... How did you get screwed in Austria? It's hard to overstate how much the SVA (the social security provider for self-employed people) annoys me. The amount you pay them in theory depends on your earnings[1] but in practice how much you pay right now is linked to how much you earned 2 years ago : They assume your profits will go up 8% each year, so for the current…

I'm in Austria too. My accountant told me that it is possible to just pay higher SVA payments. So if you assume that you will have to pay 5000/year, but they only charge you 3000/year, you just pay them an extra 2000 EUR on your last payment. And as long as you pay that before the end of the year, can deduct that from your taxes.

Interesting. I specifically asked at both the SVA and the Finanzamt and they both told me it wasn't possible. Well, too late for me, unfortunately, I got screwed in 2010 and I'm about to shut down my business in Austria anyway.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#412

Post by eli_gottlieb »

EternalFury wrote: post #292

Smart individuals don't relish the thought of being saddled by hustlers who intend to ride them to the top of the mountain. Granted, you can't make everyone a co-founder, but there is quite a bit of leeway between that and token equity. I get contacted all the time by start-up hustlers who tell me in detail what they expect or want. When I compare their "wild desires" to what I estimate they will contribute to buildi…

Granted, you can't make everyone a co-founder

Yes, you can. It's called a collective, or a cooperative. There are some functioning software cooperatives, Galois Systems being one of the more lucrative examples.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#413

Post by reinhardt »

mryan wrote: post #359
reinhardt wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds tempting.. is there a hidden jobs link in the site somewhere? ;)

No, but here's one: http://www.fashiolista.com/content/fashiolista-jobs/ :) You can contact us via that page, or feel free to email me directly (email in profile).

Ah, thought your startup was Cloudfrag. I've seen Fashiolista before and was on my list of potentially interesting startups to join. I'll probably contact you when I'm back in the market :)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#414

Post by patio11 »

malandrew wrote: post #327
kamaal wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything wrong in getting paid proportional to 'value added' for one simple reason : My employer makes the same money as somebody in another geographical area but wants to pay me less than what he would be paying me in that geographical area. The difference goes in his pocket, while extracts the same work from me. FAIR wage is not meant to cover your living expenses, they supposed to compensate you for yo…

... and working to put profit only in someone else's pocket. If a firm is in Memphis instead of NYC and selling their services to essentially the same clients, then the owners of that business are already earning a greater profit on other cheaper operating costs like commercial real estate. By accepting a lower salary that simply covers a comfortable style of living you're simply putting even more money in the owner'…

There is no reason that good developer in any market shouldn't be living at the exact same standard of living as the good doctors, lawyers, finance people in that market. They should be living in the same homes and sending their kids to the same schools, etc.

These words should be stapled to every CS degree, and reinforced with classes if necessary. The lawyers/doctors have an ingrained culture in their professions of, well, being professions. We should totally steal that. (They can keep the guild systems, though.)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#415

Post by gopi »

danssig wrote: post #399
gopi wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument (Europe is superior) made again and again. Let me try to clear the misconceptions. Please note i am a immigrant in US and somewhat qualified to compare it with the other countries. 1, Public education is free in US. Of-course the quality varies depending on which school district you live. But in most metros (other than NYC/Bay area/north east) you will be able to buy a 4 bedroom house in a good sc…

You're not clearing any misconceptions, you're making them. It would take a lot of research and work to discover what a "good district" is, while in western Europe you can just send your kids to school and not worry about it. Lots of states don't have any good districts at all. Healthcare paid for by the company is the stupidest thing ever. The company is trying to save money and having them pay for health care means…

1, 10k deductible?, thats unheard of unless if they worked for a startup with funding issues :)

2, It takes about an hour to find out the good school districts in any metro!.

3, 2x salary is real, Just compare the 2200 euro beginner salary ($35k yearly) mentioned in the post with US. An beginner american programmer can easily start at $60k. After tax it will be really 2x than in europe.

Anyway with so many downvotes i think its not a good idea to argue further :)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#416

Post by Quiark »

mhofer wrote: post #3

I am a Vienna-based programmer and am looking at job adverts regularly. I fully agree with what you have written, sometimes I feel they mus be joking. There is no appreciation for hackers and what they are worth. Take this advert for example: http://derstandard.at/anzeiger/derjob/d/155533/c-senior-soft... 5 years experience in C++ and only 2,500 EUR gross? Seriously?

Interesting. I was actually considering going to work in Vienna (not far from my current location, Brno). It's a really nice city.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#417

Post by jakobe »

pmjordan wrote: post #411
jakobe wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Austria too. My accountant told me that it is possible to just pay higher SVA payments. So if you assume that you will have to pay 5000/year, but they only charge you 3000/year, you just pay them an extra 2000 EUR on your last payment. And as long as you pay that before the end of the year, can deduct that from your taxes.

Interesting. I specifically asked at both the SVA and the Finanzamt and they both told me it wasn't possible. Well, too late for me, unfortunately, I got screwed in 2010 and I'm about to shut down my business in Austria anyway.

I think the trick is to just pay the SVA the extra money without asking questions and then hope that the Finanzamt accepts it. But I'm not a specialist and I haven't tried it yet; but I will try it this year.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#418

Post by fleitz »

moocow01 wrote: post #372
fleitz wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then color me entitled. I've had these arguments about how many hours a salaried employee should work. Despite the law saying 40, the lawyer was insistent that they could make me work any amount of hours. The next two weeks I put in 20 hours a week. Then I explained to her that any means any, and that if they didn't like it they could terminate my contract, go spend a month finding a replacement and then explain to t…

IMHO we need more of this (standing up for ourselves). I think there are some who don't fully realize the extent to which we have been lobbied against by just about everyone involved in this business to allow rates to be suppressed either through sanctioning of unpaid overtime or the facilitation of outsourcing. If you like to work a lot, fine by me - I myself spend a ton of time outside of work building software. Bu…

I try to raise this point every time someone says WLMT exploits their employees. Wal-Mart extracts about $6000 per employee in profit, this is about half the national average, and when you get to companies like GOOG, MSFT, APPL you're looking at an average of $200,000-$300,000.

Who exactly is being exploited with numbers like these? And why are we 'entitled' for demanding a fair share of the value we add to the modern economy?

Steve Jobs didn't make the iPhone anymore than the King built Windsor castle. Windsor castle was built by masons and the iPhone by engineers.

Even Henry Ford, 80 years ago knew the key to growing the economy was freeing up time for consumption. If a 40 hour work week was necessary 80 years ago then you can be sure that a 20 to 30 hour work week is appropriate now, and would actually cause our economy to boom.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#420

Post by gopi »

carlob wrote: post #380
gopi wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public education: I was talking about schools in good school districts. They are comparable to most European schools. Healthcare: If you have a good health insurance, you are covered better than any other govt sponsored health system in the world. Again i agree you are screwed if you don't have a insurance but that's a whole different argument Vacation: I am a Indian living in US and many of my friends take a month o…

Public education: but what happens when you need to go to college? Healtcare: I want to see data supporting that, IMHO it's just patently false. Vacation: if you say so I rest my case… I'm the worst of possible worlds I am an European leftist who's actually employed by an American company but works remotely from Europe, so I'd say I know pretty well both systems.

Yes it costs a lot more to go to college in US compared to Europe. But if you take into account the higher salary and low tax you will be still better off in the end. This is assuming you have 2 kids not 4 :)
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